Examining the Coffee Doctrine

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by Moksha »

It is basically an unfounded rumor that coffee was in league with the devil. In reality, this stigma arose due to the coffee and tea plants growing in the demilitarized zone during the Heaven War. Because of this, they were thought to be neutral and their valiancy was questioned.

It should be noted that coffee and tea were not the only plants that grew in this demilitarized zone during the Heaven War. The same accusations of non-valiancy would arise if hot drinks were made with kale, quinoa, and rhubarb.

In truth, the only plants known to give direct aid to God's second son, Lucifer, were the licorice and anise plants. It really made no sense to punish these plants since they knew not what they did, however, they too would be shunned if made into hot drinks.

Hope that helps.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
IHAQ
God
Posts: 1533
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:00 am

Re: Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by IHAQ »

This topic really interests me.

Initially the doctrine is clear and unambiguous.
"And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly." (D&C 89:9)

But then modern day leaders muddied the waters.
"Tea and coffee (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee)." But this lead to further confusion, so further "clarification" (in scare quotes because when the Church clarifies things it usually makes those things less clear) was needed. Which came along in 2019.
"The word coffee isn’t always in the name of coffee drinks. So, before you try what you think is just some new milkshake flavor, here are a couple of rules of thumb: (1) If you’re in a coffee shop (or any other shop that’s well-known for its coffee), the drink you’re ordering probably has coffee in it, so either never buy drinks at coffee shops or always ask if there’s coffee in it. (2) Drinks with names that include café or caffé, mocha, latte, espresso, or anything ending in -ccino are coffee and are against the Word of Wisdom."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... a?lang=eng
Church leaders also started to prohibit cold drinks.
"Green tea and black tea are both made from the leaves of the exact same tea plant. The only difference is that the leaves in black tea are fermented and in green tea they’re not. They’re both tea and against the Word of Wisdom. Some drinks have tea in them but don’t advertise that fact, so always check the ingredients. Also, iced tea is still tea."

Of course, this lead to speculation about caffeine, because caffeine is synonymous with other drinks not prohibited by the word of wisdom - like Coca Cola etc. "Despite what was reported, the Church revelation spelling out health practices (Doctrine and Covenants 89) does not mention the use of caffeine. The Church’s health guidelines prohibit alcoholic drinks, smoking or chewing of tobacco, and “hot drinks” — taught by Church leaders to refer specifically to tea and coffee."
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.or ... -august-29

Jeffrey R Holland has been seen buying coffee ice cream. Monson had a Pepsi addiction.

So if the problem isn't the temperature of the drink, and the problem isn't the caffeine in the drink (how can to be either if Coca Cola etc isn't prohibited) then what is the health issue with tea and coffee that is worse in Gods eyes top the health issues associated with consumption of carbonated drinks etc?

The fact is, the Church cannot now give an answer, because all it's "clarifications" on the matter have made it increasingly less clear. Tea and Coffee consumption will keep you out of the temple on health grounds. Overeating to the point of chronic obesity won't. Health Code? Really?
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by Moksha »

If health were an issue, Mormons would drink coffee and tea since both are healthy beverages. Green tea has the distinction of being the single healthiest beverage available.

As the apologists have stated, this is about obedience. Take an absolutely nonsensical proposition and turn it into a commandment. If you obey then you are the sort of person God wants for his Celestial Kingdom. None of that questioning about the Piranha Overseers or the need to push large round boulders uphill. Just do as you are told and everything will be okay.

Those coffee drinkers will be shuffled off to a lesser kingdom and their genitals removed.

Unwritten Rules Annotated, Volume 4, Page 17, Salt Lake City, Utah, 2032
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Atlanticmike
God
Posts: 2721
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:16 pm

Re: Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by Atlanticmike »

Moksha wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:29 am
If health were an issue, Mormons would drink coffee and tea since both are healthy beverages. Green tea has the distinction of being the single healthiest beverage available.

As the apologists have stated, this is about obedience. Take an absolutely nonsensical proposition and turn it into a commandment. If you obey then you are the sort of person God wants for his Celestial Kingdom. None of that questioning about the Piranha Overseers or the need to push large round boulders uphill. Just do as you are told and everything will be okay.

Those coffee drinkers will be shuffled off to a lesser kingdom and their genitals removed.

Unwritten Rules Annotated, Volume 4, Page 17, Salt Lake City, Utah, 2032
I agree. A lot of Mormons are addicted to soda because they "can't" drink tea or coffee. Tea or plain coffee is way better for you than drinking soda, for the most part. I know one guy who hardly ever drinks plain water, has a supply of 2L Mountain Dews in the trunk of his car 😂.
Growing up we thought anyone drinking alcohol was of the DEVIL. Coffee and tea was just slightly behind alcohol on our scale of sin. Don't even get me started on cigarettes.
I will say though, as weird as Mormonism is, the word of wisdom in my opinion is the best part of Mormonism. I've met so many people over the years who wish they were never introduced to alcohol. It has the ability to ruin people's lives if not careful with it.
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by Moksha »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:07 pm
I will say though, as weird as Mormonism is, the word of wisdom in my opinion is the best part of Mormonism. I've met so many people over the years who wish they were never introduced to alcohol. It has the ability to ruin people's lives if not careful with it.
The use of cigarettes and the overuse of alcohol has been shown to be harmful many times over.

Apparently, BYU bought a property where a future Starbucks was to be built. "Reports say that BYU paid a whopping $6 million for the lot after seven months of negotiations with Starbucks, with some financial analysts calling it “one of the most absurd overpays in the history of Utah.”

Stopping the spread of coffee is serious business in Provo.

https://www.altuniversebyu.com/2020/01/ ... to-campus/
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Atlanticmike
God
Posts: 2721
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:16 pm

Re: Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by Atlanticmike »

Moksha wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:29 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:07 pm
I will say though, as weird as Mormonism is, the word of wisdom in my opinion is the best part of Mormonism. I've met so many people over the years who wish they were never introduced to alcohol. It has the ability to ruin people's lives if not careful with it.
The use of cigarettes and the overuse of alcohol has been shown to be harmful many times over.

Apparently, BYU bought a property where a future Starbucks was to be built. "Reports say that BYU paid a whopping $6 million for the lot after seven months of negotiations with Starbucks, with some financial analysts calling it “one of the most absurd overpays in the history of Utah.”

Stopping the spread of coffee is serious business in Provo.

https://www.altuniversebyu.com/2020/01/ ... to-campus/
Haha😂 stopping the spread of coffee in Provo, that's funny, I need to visit Utah. I really enjoy when Utah Mormons move into my ward here in Virginia, they crack me up. I think us east coast Mormons are a little wacko sometimes, it seems to me we're more strict than most of the Utah Mormons I've met.
User avatar
Doctor Steuss
God
Posts: 1671
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 8:48 pm

Re: Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Beyond Joel Hills Johnson, is there any contemporary account that attributes the "hot drink" edict to specifically tea and coffee?
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by Moksha »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:51 pm
Beyond Joel Hills Johnson, is there any contemporary account that attributes the "hot drink" edict to specifically tea and coffee?
The health science of the late 18th-early 19th centuries believed that hot drinks and cold drinks were bad for you. When this notion was disproved, instead of striking the whole sentence, some yahoos (perhaps Joel Hills Johnson) penciled in the words coffee and tea. Just be thankful Joseph never added iced cold drinks, since they did not have them at the Red Brick Store. Besides, ice dropped onto the floor during the School of the Prophets would have been absorbed into the wooden floor, but the strewn beer, whiskey bottles, and tobacco spittle created a nasty mess for Emma and her servants (sister-wives). With enough whiskey and tobacco, those men must have prophecied up a storm. So much so, that they could have used some coffee and tea to become as sober as a judge.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Alf'Omega
2nd Counselor
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:42 pm

Re: Examining the Coffee Doctrine

Post by Alf'Omega »

Few people understand the this doctrine, including most LDS folks. In South American virtually all Mormons drink decaffeinated coffee and then go to the temple without a hitch.
Post Reply