Don Bradley's Kinderhook Bomb

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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _Fence Sitter »

honorentheos wrote:jon,

. Because this was not via revelation, it preserves the integrity of Joseph's abilities as a seer and revelator without denying the process described by William Clayton in his journal if someone wishes to view it in this manner.


Except it seems to present evidence that Joseph Smith did not recognize the plates as a fraud.
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _jon »

Fence Sitter wrote:
honorentheos wrote:jon,

. Because this was not via revelation, it preserves the integrity of Joseph's abilities as a seer and revelator without denying the process described by William Clayton in his journal if someone wishes to view it in this manner.


Except it seems to present evidence that Joseph Smith did not recognize the plates as a fraud.


I was just coming to the same conclusion.
Sort of an early Hoffman type affair...
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Wiki Wonka wrote:The data that Don presented supersedes and nulls out any previous critical and apologetic arguments related to the subject. Joseph did "translate" a portion of the plates just as William Clayton said, and he did so by non-revelatory means that were already available to him. Don backed this up with a number of sources.

WW


Hi there, WW. I feel like there is some confusion here, and that someone (perhaps me) is misunderstanding the critics' arguments. So I'm wondering if you could clear something up. I've always understood the critics' main point to be, simply, that Joseph Smith was fooled into thinking that the Kinderhook Plates were legitimate ancient documents, and that he mistakenly attempted to translate them. Can you tell me how D. Bradley's presentation managed to "null out" this basic assertion? Or, barring that, can you explain how my summary of the critics' argument(s) is wrong?
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

It was a good, solid presentation. Congratulations to Don.
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _jon »

Daniel Peterson wrote:It was a good, solid presentation. Congratulations to Don.


But was it the much vaunted 'game changer'?
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _honorentheos »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Hi there, WW. I feel like there is some confusion here, and that someone (perhaps me) is misunderstanding the critics' arguments. So I'm wondering if you could clear something up. I've always understood the critics' main point to be, simply, that Joseph Smith was fooled into thinking that the Kinderhook Plates were legitimate ancient documents, and that he mistakenly attempted to translate them. Can you tell me how D. Bradley's presentation managed to "null out" this basic assertion? Or, barring that, can you explain how my summary of the critics' argument(s) is wrong?

Hello Dr.,

It's an interesting question and should be clarified as it seems the current critical direction in this thread is to go towards a "weak" theory of Joseph Smith being fooled (i.e. - didn't recognize their antiquity) compared to a much stronger theory of Joseph Smith being fooled (i.e. - falsely producing a translation).

The Tanner's, in Answering Mormon Scholars vol. 2, present their argument as this -

Dr. Hamblin is certainly not correct in his statement that Joseph Smith was only mildly interested in the Kinderhook plates. Smith was, in fact, extremely interested in them. He accepted these forged plates without question and even went so far as to "translate" a portion of the fake writing found on the plates. Later the perpetrators of the fraud confessed that the Kinderhook plates were modern forgeries created specifically for the purpose of entrapping Joseph Smith.


In this statement, they suggest the weaker theory is sufficient, but then go on to claim the strong theory is in fact valid -

One Mormon scholar has argued that the "brevity" of Joseph Smith's translation of the Kinderhook plates "precludes the possibility" that Joseph Smith's' abilities as a translator" might be "called into question." We cannot agree with this conclusion. Joseph Smith's work on these fraudulent plates casts serious doubt upon his ability as a translator of Mormon scriptures like the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. (emphasis mine)

In order for Smith to derive as much information as he did from the Kinderhook plates it would have been necessary for him to have "translated" a significant number of words. The reader will remember that the History of fhe Church says that he translated "a portion of them." Since Joseph Smith made a false translation of both the Kinderhook plates and the Book of Abraham found in the Pearl of Great Price, it casts a serious shadow of doubt over his work on the Book of Mormon. James D. Bales made this perceptive observation regarding the importance of the Kinderhook episode:

"What does it all add up to? Does it merely mean that one of the 'finds' which the Latter Day Saints believed supported the Book of Mormon does not support it, and that there is no real blow dealt to the prophetship of Joseph Smith? Not at all, for as Charles A. Shook well observed - in a personal letter to the author - 'Only a bogus prophet translates bogus plates.' Where we can check up on Smith as a translator of plates, he is found guilty of deception. How can we trust him with reference to his claims about the Book of Mormon? If we cannot trust him where we can check him, we cannot trust him where we cannot check his translation... Smith tried to deceive people into thinking that he had translated some of the plates. The plates had no such message as Smith claimed that they had. Smith is thus shown to be willing to deceive people into thinking that he had the power to do something that could not be done." (The Book of Mormon? 1958, pages 98-99)


I would argue that Don Bradley has cast significant doubt on the strong theory as presented above by the Tanners. I also suspect that most arguments regarding the Kinderhook plates in the past (from both sides) were derivatives of or related to the Tanner's work or comments. In that sense Bradley's presentation is, indeed, a game changer.

I have other thoughts on what this may mean for Mormon apologetics, but I haven't heard the actual presentation so I am not sure if they do, still, apply. Of greater interest, in my opinion, is the potential for a stronger fraud theory - that by 1843 Joseph Smith had reached a point that he was "a law unto himself" as it were. Subsequent revelations such as the June 1843 plural marriage revelation seem to bear out that Joseph Smith may have been taking liberties with his claims to be the spokesman for God and was effectively "going it alone". It's worth some additional thought, anyway.

I, too, hope that Don will provide more detail from his presentation on the boards at some point soon.
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _honorentheos »

Wiki Wonka wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
The Kinderhook plate translation made use of the already-transcribed GAEL.

I'm guessing, but it seems the presentation served to take the foundation out from under both the common critical and faithful arguments.

The most common critical argument is that Joseph Smith produced or at least began a translation of the counterfeit plates claiming revelation. This process, being the same as he claimed to use to produce LDS scripture, confirms he was a fraud as the argument goes.

The LDS-faithful view that Joseph did not make this attempt, and William Clayton's journal was describing something rumored but not actually known by Clayton himself is also basically removed from the table as a valid option if my understanding of Bradley's presentation is correct.

This now suggests Joseph produced a limited "translation" of the plates but that this was not complete. It was based on using the existing GAEL and the meaning it provided for a common symbol contained in both. Because this was not via revelation, it preserves the integrity of Joseph's abilities as a seer and revelator without denying the process described by William Clayton in his journal if someone wishes to view it in this manner.


From my recollection of the presentation, this explanation is correct. The data that Don presented supersedes and nulls out any previous critical and apologetic arguments related to the subject. Joseph did "translate" a portion of the plates just as William Clayton said, and he did so by non-revelatory means that were already available to him. Don backed this up with a number of sources.

WW

Thanks for the clarification, WW. I was trying to figure this out from the various accounts on the boards and the summary above was how I made sense of the comments.
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

honorentheos wrote:I would argue that Don Bradley has cast significant doubt on the strong theory as presented above by the Tanners.


Why do you say that? Doesn't the "strong theory" merely assume that Joseph Smith was actually making things up when he claimed to be engaging in "translation"? The fact remains the the Kinderhook incident provides pretty definitive evidence that Smith was engaging in what amounts to bogus translation.

I also suspect that most arguments regarding the Kinderhook plates in the past (from both sides) were derivatives of or related to the Tanner's work or comments. In that sense Bradley's presentation is, indeed, a game changer.


I guess I'm just not following your point, honor. I don't at all see how Don's presentation "rescues" Joseph Smith from any of the critics' claims about his "translation" abilities.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _jon »

1. Joseph attempted a translation of the Kinderhook Plates

We knew that and Dons presentation doesn't change that.

2. The Kiderhook plates are forgeries

I don't think this is disputed in Dons presentation.

3. Joseph wasn't using divine inspiration

Hardly a surprise.

I just don't see what part of this is changed, what am I missing?

I guess Don has reaffirmed that we should take Josephs ability to translate with a large pinch of salt.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Aug 06, 2011 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb

Post by _honorentheos »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
honorentheos wrote:I would argue that Don Bradley has cast significant doubt on the strong theory as presented above by the Tanners.


Why do you say that? Doesn't the "strong theory" merely assume that Joseph Smith was actually making things up when he claimed to be engaging in "translation"? The fact remains the the Kinderhook incident provides pretty definitive evidence that Smith was engaging in what amounts to bogus translation.

I also suspect that most arguments regarding the Kinderhook plates in the past (from both sides) were derivatives of or related to the Tanner's work or comments. In that sense Bradley's presentation is, indeed, a game changer.


I guess I'm just not following your point, honor. I don't at all see how Don's presentation "rescues" Joseph Smith from any of the critics' claims about his "translation" abilities.

Again, I am only inferring information from what has been posted online so far. But if I understand the presentation correctly, it serves to show two things:

First, that the limited information translated from the plates was related to a symbol the plates held in common with the GAEL. This fact, by itself, could be sufficient for a faithful LDS person to feel that Joseph Smith was not deceived into believing the plates were ancient - he had reason because of the antiquity of at least one symbol on them. If his translation is relatively confined to what can be derived from the GAEL's explanation of the same symbol, then a believer is unlikely to be concerned with the details of William Clayton's journal entry.

Second, if again Joseph Smith's translation is limited to what can be explained by use of the GAEL, it weakens a critical argument that the false translation of the Kinderhook plates shows Joseph Smith's translation of other material is made of the same cloth, as suggested in one of the quotes I shared.

Now, Dr., I am not declaring a victory for LDS apologetics here. I'm simply giving Don his due. His presentation will force change in how both critics and believers discuss the significance of the Kinderhook Plates. My opinion is that a person's view of the GAEL will decide how to take Don's explainations.
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