Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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_jon
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Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _jon »

Who was Arthur Patton? Did he live and die like Thomas S. Monson has claimed? . . .

"1969 version of the story [ http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnex ... &hideNav=1]

"2007 version of the same [ http://www.josephsmith.net/ldsorg/v/ind ... 82620aRCRD ]

Now, it is apparent that a poster on a different board has researched Arthur Patton. There is no record of him existing. There is no record of him dying in World War II. In the very specific (but totally different) versions of Arthur's demise, has Thomas S Monson 'outed' himself as the new Paul H Dunn?

from some comments by a poster:
I actually printed out, about two years ago (?), talks given by TSM about his "boyhood friend" Arthur Patton. The talks were given decades apart and detail the service and death (in WWII)of Arthur Patton on different ships, in different battles, and in different years. And the kicker...in the listing of Utah war dead there is no Arthur Patton (or Patten").


Further, in any search of World War II American casualties, lost at sea or missing in action, there is no Arthur Patton. Given that his mother, according to Thomas, received 'the letter' tells us Arthur must have been officially recorded as a casualty - well, if he existed and if the events transpired as Monson tells us they did...
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

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_subgenius
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _subgenius »

the easy answer to this thread's question.....no, he is not a liar. yipee, the critics have to recycle old material!

http://forum.newordermormon.org/viewtop ... sc&start=0

and what a revelation, the inconsequential details from a faith-promoting story may or may not be verifiable and consistent when told decades apart.

The only issue here is whether or not the story is a complete fabrication, for which no evidence has been submitted. The inference by this thread's OP is nefarious and diabolical and speaks more to the ill-conceived motivations of the poster than of any man who seeks to inspire and uplift people.
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_jon
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _jon »

subgenius wrote:and what a revelation, the inconsequential details from a faith-promoting story may or may not be verifiable and consistent when told decades apart.

The only issue here is whether or not the story is a complete fabrication, for which no evidence has been submitted. The inference by this thread's OP is nefarious and diabolical and speaks more to the ill-conceived motivations of the poster than of any man who seeks to inspire and uplift people.

Sub, I'm not seeing any facts in your rebuttal...

How is this different to the things that got Paul H Dunn pushed out?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
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_Buffalo
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Buffalo »

His story on Sunday morning about the temple dedication had Paul H Dunn written all over it.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_just me
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _just me »

I have been unable to find this Arthur Patton after many hours of research. I have looked everywhere I can think of to look and Arthur just doesn't appear in places he should if the story were correct and true.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
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_jon
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _jon »

just me wrote:I have been unable to find this Arthur Patton after many hours of research. I have looked everywhere I can think of to look and Arthur just doesn't appear in places he should if the story were correct and true.

I wonder if this is what subgenius meant by an 'inconsequential detail'
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
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_just me
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _just me »

Jon, here is my research thus far on these talks.

***DISCLAIMER*** I wrote this back in the Spring. For those coming to this thread for the first time please read the whole thread. More evidence has been uncovered. This post is outdated!***


Mrs. Patton, do you exist?

Many months ago it was brought to my attention that there was a story shared by President Thomas S. Monson that had some contradictions in it. These contradictions were seen because he had talked about the same story many years before. I did some research on the people mentioned in the story to attempt to discover the historical truth.

I was only able to discover the errors and so I share it with you. Perhaps there is someone who can offer an explanation to the contradictory story told in two General Conferences of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The most recent version of this story is titled “Mrs. Patton-The Story Continues,” General Conference, October 2007. [1] The initial story was told in General Conference, April 1969. It was reprinted in the New Era, April 1991, and titled “Mrs. Patton, Arthur Lives.”[2] This story has now been made into a Mormon Message and can be found here: http://lds.org/church/until-we-meet-aga ... rs.+patton

In this story Monson talks of a childhood friend, Arthur Patton. He gives a physical description and says that Arthur “stood taller than any boy in class.” It is unclear whether Monson was in the same class as Arthur. Monson was born in August 1927 and Arthur is said to have been born about August 1925, a difference of 2 years. Arthur would have been a class or two ahead of Monson. Thomas Monson attended West High School in Salt Lake City, Utah from 1940-1944. The (Spring) 1938 West High Yearbook does not have an Arthur Patton as a student, but that is probably too early.[3] The 1939 and 1940 yearbooks have not yet been scanned onto the schools website. A Classmates.com subscription granted me access to the 1939 and 1940 yearbooks. There is not an Arthur Patton in either of those yearbooks.[4]

The story goes that Arthur joined the Navy in 1940 as a tall 15 year old. The US did not enter in to World War II until December 7, 1941. It seems unlikely, though not impossible, that a 15 year old would feel compelled to enter service in the Navy before the US even entered the war. The letter from Mrs. Patton indicates that he joined at age 15 which would have been anytime between August of 1940 and August of 1941.

There are contradictions between the two stories that were told.

In the first version, “Mrs. Patton, Arthur Lives,” it is claimed that Arthur Patton served on the Lexington and died in the Battle of the Coral Sea on May 8, 1942. The Lexington did sink on that day with as many as 300 lives lost. [5]

The follow up version, “Mrs. Patton, The Story Continues,” gives a different account. It is claimed that Arthur was lost at sea while aboard the USS White Plains at Saipan. A cited letter from Mrs. Patton contains the death date July 5, 1944. The USS White Plains was not in combat during that date. From Wikipedia, “The USS White Plains departed the combat zone on 2 July but, after a week at Eniwetok, returned to the Marianas with her air squadron upgraded to a total of 28 aircraft.” [6]

Clearly Arthur could not have lived both these versions of the story. One or both are false. If he was on the Lexington and died in 1942 then the follow up story along with the letter from Mrs. Patton are false. It does not appear that the second story can be true because the White Plains was not engaged in battle July 5, 1944.

In an effort to find out where US casualties were sustained on July 5, 1944 I have discovered that there were military personnel who died in France on that date. I am not a WWII expert and have not determined what battles were taking place or which branches of the military were involved.

There are lists available to look up the names of those who lost their lives during WWII. Arthur Patton does not show up on those lists. I have searched on a WWII casualty list through the National Archives as well as Ancestry.com and found an absence of the name Arthur Patton. [7] In fact, there is no Arthur Patton of Utah found in the WWII enlistment records searchable through Ancestry.com or Footnote.com. The WWII U.S. Navy Muster Rolls, 1939-1949 database on Ancestry.com does not contain an Arthur Patton. I found two “Patten” men from Utah who enlisted in 1944, neither one named Arthur.

What about the mother? Terese Patton of Pomona, California should be found somewhere. I did find a Terese Patton on the Social Security Death Index and the California Death Index, though not living in Pomona. She matches a Terese Patton on the 1930 US Federal Census for Chicago, IL that has a son Arthur Patton with the right birth month and year along with 3 other children. This Terese lost her husband on December 8, 1941 in Chicago, Illinois, the day after Pearl Harbor was attacked, and her 4 children are still living according to one Ancestry.com public family tree.[8] It does not appear that this family lived in Utah any time prior to his death where she could have been a widow working as a cleaning woman. However, Terese's social security card was isued in Utah prior to 1951.

Monson describes Mrs. Patton as grey haired and shoulders “stooped from age.” That is not what most would expect of a description of a woman in her mid-forties.

This Terese Patton certainly does not fit all of the criteria.

The 1940 US Federal Census would perhaps give us more definitive answers as there would have to be a "Patton" family living in the Monson neighborhood for the story to work. However, we must wait several more months before that can be consulted.

One idea that I had was that maybe Monson changed the names to protect the family. This cannot be the case, however, since the mother is claimed to have miraculously attended a viewing of the conference with friends, recognized the story and wrote a response letter. Because the details of the ship and death were wrong in the first version the only other way Terese Patton would have been able to recognize the story as her own would have been the names.

In conclusion, the faith building story about Thomas Monson coming to the spiritual aid of a grieving widow named Terese Patton is not true as it has been given in General Conference. There was not a boy named Arthur Patton from Utah who was enlisted in WWII or a casualty of it according to the databases I've consulted.

Sources:
1. “Mrs. Patton, Arthur Lives” lds.org. http://lds.org/new-era/1991/04/mrs-patt ... rs.+patton
2. “Mrs. Patton- The Story Continues” lds.org. http://lds.org/general-conference/2007/ ... rs.+patton
3. West High School Yearbooks website. http://west.slcschools.org/alumni/Publi ... rbooks.htm
4. Classmates.com West High School Yearbooks
5. USS Lexington Wiki page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Lexington_(CV-2)#Battle_of_the_Coral_Sea
6. USS White Plains Wiki page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_White_Plains_(CVE-66)#World_War_II
7. Casualty page where “Arthur Patton” of Utah should appear. http://media.nara.gov/media/images/27/32/27-3134a.gif
8. Ancestry.com Public Family Tree. I have not verified information from this family tree.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_jon
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _jon »

Just Me,

If I had a hat I would take it off to you...

Does the story of Arthur Patton crop up in Monsons book 'To the Rescue' I wonder...
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_just me
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _just me »

jon wrote:Just Me,

If I had a hat I would take it off to you...


Awww, you're sweet. *blush*
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _DrW »

just me wrote:
jon wrote:Just Me,

If I had a hat I would take it off to you...


Awww, you're sweet. *blush*

Well done, "just me". Very interesting.

Just one question: is the word "not" perhaps missing somewhere in the sentence below, as copied from your outstanding post above?

In conclusion, the faith building story about Thomas Monson coming to the spiritual aid of a grieving widow named Terese Patton is true as it has been given in General Conference.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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