Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

[_Chap]

Monson still could have heard through neighborhood chatter something different then the kid's mom, or what the official military story was.

Please ...

In 1944 the lady got a letter from the navy about her son who had gone missing from the White Plains on July 4th that year (and I hope, because I am a kind Chap, that the officer who drafted the letter left out the stuff about 'his own misconduct' being responsible). Monson went to see her, and they prayed about her dead son, his childhood friend.

And you want us to leave room for the possibility that either:

1. She said nothing to Monson about how and when her son died,

or

2. She told Monson how her son died and he decided to ignore it

and then (either way) he picked up street gossip that kid had gone down with the Lexington TWO YEARS EARLIER, and so put that into this 1969 talk instead of what really happened?

I'm sticking to my point made earlier: "[Monson's] faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."

[_harmony]

Maybe he just forgot. Or maybe he's getting a bit senile and got his stories mixed up?

[_just me]

To be certain, the story is embellished and told in a way to tug at people's heartstrings. It also seems like Thomas wasn't that close to the family or could barely remember the family.

Thomas repeatedly calls himself a boy, a mere boy, an inadequate boy. He was actually graduated from high school and preparing to go to university when Arthur went missing.

He describes Mrs. Patton as a gray-haired lady who is stooped over with age. She was 49. If she was stooped it wasn't from age. It would be enlightening to see a photo of the woman from around that time. If anyone describes me like that when I am 49 it won't be pretty.

The way he describes her widowhood gives the impression that she was a widow during the childhood friendship forged with Arthur. Maybe I am alone in that impression, maybe not. The truth is, she didn't become a widow until 2 days before Arthur enlisted in the Navy. That in itself must be a fascinating story because her husband died in Chicago, not Salt Lake. He worked for the railroad.

I was also left with the impression that Arthur Patton was an only child. Thomas says that he was "her whole world" and that there was one star hanging in the window. The truth is that she had 4 children, 3 boys and 1 girl. As far as I can find, two of the boys were in the Navy. She would have had two stars hanging in her window. She had at least her daughter still living at home, possibly her oldest son as well.

He tells us that Arthur was the tallest in class. Monson would not have had class with Arthur, that I can tell, because they were 2 years apart in age.

He says that Arthur lied to the military about his age in order to enlist. I am not convinced that this is true. He is listed with his actual name and I am unsure about his birth on his records. But, he was 16 years and 3 months, or so, when he enlisted. Not 15. It doesn't appear, to me, that he used false identification to get in. Again, I am not a military expert so I don't know about those things.

These are the detail issues that go beyond the actual death and service information given about Arthur.

In the first talk he addresses Mrs. Patton over and over again. He wants her, and others, to know that there is life after death. Then, forty years later and after the death of Mrs. Patton he claims that something like a miracle happened and his address to her actually reached her ears! This time we get closer to the actual story, too, so someone has done some homework. Mrs. Patton would have been about 75 years old in 1969 during his first talk.

Now, it is entirely possible that the TSM did spend time in the Patton home and that he did receive a letter from her. However, when a story has so many errors in it one has to wonder if any of it is remembered correctly at all.

[_just me]

Perhaps the records kept on the boat are wrong.

I think you have alluded to records being wrong a few times on this thread. Do you have a reason for thinking that the records are wrong? What do you think is wrong about the records?

[_Buffalo]

He tells us that Arthur was the tallest in class. Monson would not have had class with Arthur, that I can tell, because they were 2 years apart in age.

Depends on how small the school was. My dad's high school was so small that everyone, freshman to seniors, were in the same class.

[_Chap]

Maybe he just forgot. Or maybe he's getting a bit senile and got his stories mixed up?

He was senile in 1969 when he told us that, while flying over the Coral Sea on his way to Brisbane, he thought about this guy going down in battle with the Lexington in 1942, whereas in fact he went missing 'due to his own misconduct' from the White Plains in Eniwetok atoll two years later?

[_just me]

He tells us that Arthur was the tallest in class. Monson would not have had class with Arthur, that I can tell, because they were 2 years apart in age.

Depends on how small the school was. My dad's high school was so small that everyone, freshman to seniors, were in the same class.

Ah, I did wonder about how big their elementary would be. I do not believe they were in high school together based on yearbooks and the years involved.
I may go digging around in the yearbooks again just for fun. ;)

[_stemelbow]

Please ...

In 1944 the lady got a letter from the navy about her son who had gone missing from the White Plains on July 4th that year (and I hope, because I am a kind Chap, that the officer who drafted the letter left out the stuff about 'his own misconduct' being responsible). Monson went to see her, and they prayed about her dead son, his childhood friend.

And you want us to leave room for the possibility that either:

1. She said nothing to Monson about how and when her son died,

or

2. She told Monson how her son died and he decided to ignore it

Why do you assume Monson must have heard of the death from his mother? News could have spread via the neighborhood. She might not have wanted to talk about the letter suggesting death. And, as you suggest, she might not have heard anything about cause of death. Perhaps she plainly thought he died in action and mentioned that to Monson. My point is, there are tons of possibilities to explain how this could ahve all happened, the least of which would incriminate Monson as some sort of liar as people here are suggesting.

and then (either way) he picked up street gossip that kid had gone down with the Lexington TWO YEARS EARLIER, and so put that into this 1969 talk instead of what really happened?

Look. I don't' know how that got in there, or in his head. Perhaps he had him mixed up with someone else mentioning his death in '69. I just don't think the major cynicism here to paint him as a liar.

I'm sticking to my point made earlier: "[Monson's] faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."

It was his personal story to tell. He obviously didn't know or was confused about some details but those details weren't the point of his story. This is called making mountains out of molehills.

[_Chap]

... Another post from stemelbow explaining how you can always find a possible (even if not necessarily probable) explanation for pretty well any kind of apparent misbehavior by people held in respect by the CoJCoLDS, if only you try hard enough.

If there is a Last Judgement, I hope that I shall look up and see stemelbow on the throne as an angel hands him my case file.

But meanwhile, as I said, I stick to this:

"[Monson's] faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."

At least stemelbow will forgive me for saying that.

[_just me]

But meanwhile, as I said, I stick to this:

"[Monson's] faith promoting talks should carry a health warning along the lines of "Caution: this talk is intended to make you feel good. It is a faith supplement only, and may not contain actual facts"."

I think that is a fair takeaway. The stories told in GC are really only told to promote faith, not facts.

It was nice of Thomas to leave out the belief that her son is in Spirit Prison until his Mormon ordinances are completed and accepted. That might not have been very comforting.