Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

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_Nevo
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Nevo »

Nomad wrote:From what Nevo says, he doesn't show up on any ship roster after July 1944.

By the way, I took another look at that muster record. I should have scrolled to the bottom because it actually explains a lot.

The notation referring to Arthur Patton states that he went "missing as result of own misconduct" on 4 July 1944.

Image

Another sailor, Blake Pauley, shared the same fate. They seem to have both gone missing while the ship was at Enewetak Atoll.

In any case, it appears that Mrs. Patton was told that her son was killed on 5 July—and that is who President Monson got his information from. Presumably Arthur did die around then because the USS White Plains left Enewetak Atoll without him.

For the genealogy buffs out there, Mrs. Patton was born Terese (Theresa) Loikits on 11 November 1894 to Sigmund Loikits (1869-1919) and Theresa Kneiss (1871-1947) in Hungary. Sigmund emigrated to America in 1903 (arr. 12 May 1903) and his family followed two years later. They settled in Lincoln, Berrien Co., Michigan. Sigmund and Theresa are buried at Resurrection Cemetery in St. Joseph, Berrien, MI. Mrs. Patton died in California in June 1980.
_Morley
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Morley »

Thanks, Nevo. Can we get a link?
_Nevo
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Nevo »

Morley wrote:Thanks, Nevo. Can we get a link?

This is the link:

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?ti=0&indiv=try&db=navymuster&h=49767610

But I believe you will need an Ancestry.com subscription to see it.
_Buffalo
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Buffalo »

Well done, Nevo. This is looking good for Monson.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_just me
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _just me »

Awesome. I wonder if the service records would have more details.

Missing is certainly different than killed in battle. I wonder if going missing due to misconduct would preclude someone from being listed on the MIA list. I am not a military buff so I don't know the rules of such things.

Mrs. Patton would have had 2 stars in her window. She had 4 children. Her husband actually was buried the same day Arthur enlisted.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
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_Nevo
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Nevo »

just me wrote:I wonder if going missing due to misconduct would preclude someone from being listed on the MIA list.

This seems to be the case. Blake Pauley (b. 16 Feb 1927) isn't listed as KIA or MIA either. These guys were young: Patton was 18 and Pauley was only 17. Who knows what stupid thing they did to get themselves killed. Evidently their bodies weren't recovered.
_Steve Benson
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Steve Benson »

The U.S.S. White Plains crew status log for July 1944 indicates Patton as "missing," due to "own misconduct."

If, for the sake of argument, Patton went "missing" in July 1944 (meaning as in AWOL), he would have been listed in U.S. military records as such, not as missing.

Again, for the sake of argument, perhaps Patton (along with his shipmate) failed to get back on the ship and thus were considered "missing" but not AWOL. Consider the following: Per U.S. military law, one can be "missing" and not considered dead or AWOL under certain "misconduct" conditions:

“Any person subject to this chapter who through neglect or design MISSES [emphasis added] the movement of a ship, aircraft, or unit with which he is required in the course of duty to move shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

"Elements.

"(1) That the accused was required in the course of duty to move with a ship, aircraft or unit;

"(2) That the accused knew of the prospective movement of the ship, aircraft or unit;

"(3) That the accused missed the movement of the ship, aircraft or unit; and

"(4) That the accused missed the movement through design or neglect.

"Explanation.

"(1) Movement.

"'Movement' as used in Article 87 includes a move, transfer, or shift of a ship, aircraft, or unit involving a substantial distance and period of time. Whether a particular movement is substantial is a question to be determined by the court-martial considering all the circumstances. Changes which do not constitute a 'movement' include practice marches of a short duration with a return to the point of departure, and minor changes in location of ships, aircraft, or units, as when a ship is shifted from one berth to another in the same shipyard or harbor or when a unit is moved from one barracks to another on the same post."

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitive ... s/a/87.htm

Putting aside the notion that Patton had missed his boat, perhaps he (along with his missing shipmate) engaged in some unwise personal conduct which got themselves killed.

However, Patton's name does not show up in any official U.S. military records covering World War II as dead, missing or wounded. Regarding American casualties in that conflict, the U.S. Department of the Navy has posted online the military records for "[c]asualties listed represent[ing] only those on active duty in the U.S. Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard, resulting directly from enemy action or from operational activities against the enemy in war zones from December 7, 1941, to the end of the war." It adds that "[c]asualties in the United States area or as a result of disease, homicide, or suicide in any location are not included."

The report describes itself as "a State summary taken from casualty lists released by the Navy Department, corrected as to the most recent casualty status and recorded residence of next of kin."

The official casualty status of Patton (were it to be found anywhere) would therefore be in this Navy document: "[A] State Summary of War Casualties [Utah], U.S. Navy 1946, Compiled July 1946 by Casualty Section, Office of Public Information, Navy Department." If Patton had been killed in the performance of military combat duties, his name would have appeared under "Killed in Action, Died of Wounds, or Lost Lives as Result of Operational Movements in War Zones," alphabetized by name under "P," in "Dead" section, p. 5, at: http://archives.utah.gov/research/guide ... s-utah.pdf

However, Arthur Patton's name does not appear anywhere in this document (including in its section of "Missing in Action or During Operational War Missions."

Adding further mystery to the matter, it seems odd that Patton's mother was reportedly notified (barely one day after Patton was deemed missing on 4 July 1944 ) that he had been killed on 5 July 1944. This appears to be an extraordinarily rapid response to the case of a missing 18-year-old Navy private off the coast of Saipan during a fighting lull for his ship, which headed out of the combat zone on 2 July 1944 for a week at Eniwetok.

It is also worth noting that Patton's mother (at least so the story goes) apparently did not tell Monson how her son was killed. Yet, the Monson story reports Patton as having been "lost at sea," when no official U.S. government military records for World War II are known to substantiate that claim.

Moreover, Monson misstates the facts (once again) in falsely declaring in his 2007 retelling of these alleged events:

"In March 1944, with the war now raging, Arthur was transferred from the USS Dorsey, a destroyer, to the USS White Plains, an aircraft carrier. While at Saipan in the South Pacific, the ship was attacked. Arthur was one of those on board who was lost at sea."

http://lds.org/general-conference/2007/ ... s?lang=eng

For the record, Patton turned up missing in July 1944, not in March 1944, during the U.S.S. White Plain's absence from the combat operations zone from 2 July to 9 July. Again, Patton was officially classified as missing on 4 July. Patton therefore could not have been "lost at sea" while onboard a ship that was not under enemy attack during the time he was noted on his ship's crew list as being "missing" due to his "own misconduct."

Of course, it does not make for a faith-promoting story told before a General Conference audience to declare that Patton ended up missing due to his personal misconduct. "Lost at sea" sounds much more gallant.

It also sounds fishy.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
_Morley
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Morley »

Welcome to the board, good sir.
_Nevo
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Nevo »

interested wrote:Adding further mystery to the matter, it seems odd that Patton's mother was reportedly notified (barely one day after Patton was deemed missing on 4 July 1944 ) that he had been killed on 5 July 1944. This appears to be an extraordinarily rapid response to the case of a missing 18-year-old Navy private off the coast of Saipan during a fighting lull for his ship, which headed out of the combat zone on 2 July 1944 for a week at Eniwetok.

I don't think it has been reported anywhere that Mrs. Patton was notified of her son's death "barely one day after Patton was deemed missing." I'm sure she wasn't notified until much later. I apologize if sloppy phrasing on my part gave this impression (I wrote "it appears that Mrs. Patton was told that her son was killed on 5 July").
_Steve Benson
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Re: Does Thomas S Monson tell lies...?

Post by _Steve Benson »

It was rather imprecise writing on your part. Thank you for clarifying.

(*Note: Since making your comment in that regard, I have added a further observation about Monson's historical imprecision regarding Saipan-area attacks on the U.S.S. White Plains that Monson inaccurately claims led to Patton being "lost at sea").
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