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I'm having a 'thinking' day today.

I'm pondering over why the Church has rituals and ordinances and also has them for the dead.

According to Mormonism God is all knowing. He knows what's in our minds and in our hearts. He knows our intentions.
If that is true why does He require a physical manifestation of that intention?

I mean, if a fundamentally good person dies without knowing the Gospel, but God already knows that he would have joined the Church if he had been given the option then why is a posthumous baptism required?

Why is tithing settlement a requirement? God already knows if we have paid a full tithe or not and He already knows our intentions for the future payment of tithes.

Why be sealed as a family? God already knows if we have the right desires and intentions in our hearts, so why the need for a physical ritual to display that intention?

Who are the rituals actually for because I can't see that God needs them?

Drifting wrote:I'm having a 'thinking' day today.

I'm pondering over why the Church has rituals and ordinances and also has them for the dead.

Drifting wrote:According to Mormonism God is all knowing. He knows what's in our minds and in our hearts. He knows our intentions.
If that is true why does He require a physical manifestation of that intention?

I'm not sure if this is in the area of your thoughts, but I've always had a problem about dressing up for church on a Sunday. Is it really for God, or is it to impress people around you that are trying to to the same thing? If you rolled in wearing jeans and a t-shirt, are you less worthy to pray and join the worship? Does God really have a dress code?

Drifting wrote:I mean, if a fundamentally good person dies without knowing the Gospel, but God already knows that he would have joined the Church if he had been given the option then why is a posthumous baptism required?

This makes no sense to me. I'm trying to question this one.

Drifting wrote:Why is tithing settlement a requirement? God already knows if we have paid a full tithe or not and He already knows our intentions for the future payment of tithes.

If I understand correctly, the LDS require that you pay a minimum of 10% as a tithe, plus extras such as fasting contributions for the Bishops storehouse? Why is is that in the Bible that the purpose of the tithe was for the Bishops storehouse, and not an extra contribution? Why does god need money anyway?

Drifting wrote:Why be sealed as a family? God already knows if we have the right desires and intentions in our hearts, so why the need for a physical ritual to display that intention?

Because It sounds good, but isn't the LDS ideal that you also become gods yourself, with your own domain to rule over? how is this done as a family together?

Drifting wrote:Who are the rituals actually for because I can't see that God needs them?

Hmmmmm.......An excellent question.

Drifting wrote:I'm having a 'thinking' day today.

I'm pondering over why the Church has rituals and ordinances and also has them for the dead.

According to Mormonism God is all knowing. He knows what's in our minds and in our hearts. He knows our intentions.
If that is true why does He require a physical manifestation of that intention?

I mean, if a fundamentally good person dies without knowing the Gospel, but God already knows that he would have joined the Church if he had been given the option then why is a posthumous baptism required?

Why is tithing settlement a requirement? God already knows if we have paid a full tithe or not and He already knows our intentions for the future payment of tithes.

Why be sealed as a family? God already knows if we have the right desires and intentions in our hearts, so why the need for a physical ritual to display that intention?

Who are the rituals actually for because I can't see that God needs them?

Because God, as understood by LDS theology, is legalistic and petty.

Buffalo wrote:
Because God, as understood by LDS theology, is legalistic and petty.

You're obviously not intelligent enough to continue with this, nor even respond to anything I said directly.-Buffalo

wow, this quote really does work for all your posts

Drifting wrote:I'm having a 'thinking' day today.

I'm pondering over why the Church has rituals and ordinances and also has them for the dead.

According to Mormonism God is all knowing. He knows what's in our minds and in our hearts. He knows our intentions.
If that is true why does He require a physical manifestation of that intention?

I mean, if a fundamentally good person dies without knowing the Gospel, but God already knows that he would have joined the Church if he had been given the option then why is a posthumous baptism required?

Why is tithing settlement a requirement? God already knows if we have paid a full tithe or not and He already knows our intentions for the future payment of tithes.

Why be sealed as a family? God already knows if we have the right desires and intentions in our hearts, so why the need for a physical ritual to display that intention?

Who are the rituals actually for because I can't see that God needs them?

The short answer is that even a cursory view of the whole of scriptures one will constantly and consistently see that God requires Faith to be manifest by Action.
The idea that God knows what is in the heart is "enough" is a fallacy. True He does know what is in the heart, but He insists that it be translated.
Quite simply put...the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

subgenius wrote:

Buffalo wrote:
Because God, as understood by LDS theology, is legalistic and petty.

You're obviously not intelligent enough to continue with this, nor even respond to anything I said directly.-Buffalo

wow, this quote really does work for all your posts

You're coming off as kind of butthurt now. Just saying.

subgenius wrote:
The short answer is that even a cursory view of the whole of scriptures one will constantly and consistently see that God requires Faith to be manifest by Action.
The idea that God knows what is in the heart is "enough" is a fallacy. True He does know what is in the heart, but He insists that it be translated.
Quite simply put...the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

That may answer why living people are asked to be baptized, but it doesn't answer why baptism has to be done for the dead, since it is not an action they can take. This means that God requires baptism for salvation in the Celestial, which no one has come up with why it would really be needed other then it is just made up by man.

Even sealings make no sense, since relationships do not need some ritual in order to remain intact.

Themis wrote:
That may answer why living people are asked to be baptized, but it doesn't answer why baptism has to be done for the dead, since it is not an action they can take. This means that God requires baptism for salvation in the Celestial, which no one has come up with why it would really be needed other then it is just made up by man.

Even sealings make no sense, since relationships do not need some ritual in order to remain intact.

To your last sentence - true, sealings would not seem to be required. The concept that your own children would need to be sealed to you is particularly curious.

My TBM father-in-law was talking recently about the 'families forever' concept and remarked on how he was surprised that non-LDS don't seem to care if they can be together as a family post-death since they don't believe in the 'sealing' practice. Although I did not challenge his assumption, from my perspective (coming from a RC family background) it struck me that his observation is not correct in that other faiths do care about the 'togetherness' concept - it's just that they do not see any justification in the LDS claim that a 'sealing' will be required to enjoy it.

Likewise, I haven't found any clear doctrinal reason or solid timeline for the concept that a Temple Marriage is required for the same or for entrance into the CK, as opposed to any standard marriage, disregarding the interpretation that there are even three separate kingdoms to start with.

Buffalo wrote:
You're coming off as kind of butthurt now. Just saying.

Sez you, .....nice strategy, but its too transparent and often the last refuge
frankly put, you are an easy argue and i almost feel bad at all the dismantling of your "alleged" intellect.

Themis wrote:

subgenius wrote:
The short answer is that even a cursory view of the whole of scriptures one will constantly and consistently see that God requires Faith to be manifest by Action.
The idea that God knows what is in the heart is "enough" is a fallacy. True He does know what is in the heart, but He insists that it be translated.
Quite simply put...the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

That may answer why living people are asked to be baptized, but it doesn't answer why baptism has to be done for the dead, since it is not an action they can take. This means that God requires baptism for salvation in the Celestial, which no one has come up with why it would really be needed other then it is just made up by man.

Even sealings make no sense, since relationships do not need some ritual in order to remain intact.

so, what then of Mark 16:16? Baptism is not offered as an option in that verse. John 3:5 also reinforces this notion. It can not be easily be discarded because we see that water used similarly in Eph 5:26 and Titus 3:5. One can not attribute its use as being similar in meaning to John 7:37, because the word "water" is used in a completely, and clearly, different manner.

James Chapter 2 is a stark testimony of that. One can not simply have "faith", God commands that we act upon it, and Christ has commanded a specific action, the act of being baptized...i agree, its not the water in-and-of-itself, but our willingness to go into the water, and God is only satisfied with the sincerity of our willingness when we come up out of the water.

Reference also the parable of the vineyard, only those that are working receive the penny wage.
1 Peter 1:10, 20-23
John 3:3-5
Acts 19:1-7
1 Peter 3:21

Again, continue reading Hebrews 11 and you will see that faith is inextricably linked to work, to action, by obedience to what has been commanded. I have not seen where faith has provided salvation for any who believed but did nothing.
John 6:44-45, you can not even come unto Him without working.

Many have believed in Christ but were not saved
James 2:19
John 12:42-43
Acts 22:1-16
Matt. 7:21-27

To contend that Faith is all that is required contradicts the teachings for confession, repentance, baptism, endurance, etc...
There is no magic ingredient, the recipe must be followed
Acts 3:22-23

Additionally, there is evidence, outside of the scriptures as well, that early Christians baptized the dead. There is precedence for both the spiritual notion and the continued revelation that has brought about baptism by proxy today.