That Same Spirit

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Shulem
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Re: Flip-Flop

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:27 pm
QUESTION: When is eternal not eternal?

ANSWER: When Smith backpedals to find an excuse such as D&C 19:6,7.
D&C 19:6 wrote:Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment

Wrong, Joseph! You have forgotten what you dictated earlier to Oliver in following the classic and traditional version of hell as defined in the Bible. Both heaven and hell are eternal and have no end!

. . . “unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.” (1 Nephi 14:3)

. . . unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7)
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No End

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D&C 19:6 wrote:Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment

Wrong again, Joseph. You declared earlier that the justice of God divides the wicked from the righteous forever and ever:

“And I said unto them that our father also saw that the justice of God did also divide the wicked from the righteous; and the brightness thereof was like unto the brightness of a flaming fire, which ascendeth up unto God forever and ever, and hath no end.” (1 Nephi 15:30)

Then, you further define judgment and justice as being eternal in stating that the wicked go to hell and the righteous go to heaven, which is the final state.

You said it yourself, Joseph, it’s an either or scenario:

“And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.” (1 Nephi 15:35)

Either heaven or hell. Both are the final state!
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Forever

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Book of Mormon JESUS said:

“For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, FOREVER. Amen.”

Does forever mean forever?

FOREVER in the Book of Mormon:

“Behold, my soul is rent with anguish because of you, and my heart is pained; I fear lest ye shall be cast off FOREVER.”

“My heart hath been weighed down with sorrow from time to time, for I have feared, lest for the hardness of your hearts the Lord your God should come out in the fulness of his wrath upon you, that ye be cut off and destroyed FOREVER

“And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God. And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable FOREVER

“And according to the power of justice, for justice cannot be denied, ye must go away into that lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up FOREVER and ever, which lake of fire and brimstone is endless torment”

“Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up FOREVER and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will”

“And if the Lord shall say—Be thou accursed, that no man shall find thee from this time henceforth and forever—behold, no man getteth it henceforth and FOREVER. And behold, if the Lord shall say unto a man—Because of thine iniquities, thou shalt be accursed FOREVER—it shall be done. And if the Lord shall say—Because of thine iniquities thou shalt be cut off from my presence—he will cause that it shall be so”



Please note that Satan had become miserable forever. If you plug the word forever into the context of each application you soon realize that Joseph Smith really was endorsing the traditional concept of heaven and hell into his Book of Mormon doctrine.

I so testify,

Shulem


PS. Dr. Shades, please forgive me for using more red writing. It really is necessary in making these presentations. I do appreciate you bending the rule and allowing me an exception in these specific cases. I feel a little guilty every time I do it.

Thank you.
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Apologetics

Post by Shulem »

Dear Shulem,

You fail to understand that the Book of Mormon is only citing doctrine in which they understood at that time. Their understanding of heaven and hell was limited and the doctrine of Three Degrees of Glory came later as understood by the New Testament apostles and later by Joseph Smith. Line upon line and precept upon precept is how the Holy Spirit revealed doctrine in Book of Mormon times.

Sincerely,

Joe Righteous


Dear Joe Righteous,

I don’t think you’re looking at the big picture. You’re making excuses without understanding the entire timeline and what is involved. This so-called limited understanding of heaven and hell was taught throughout the entire Book of Mormon, not just by Nephi and prophets who preceded Christ, but throughout the entire volume. And, lest you forget, Mormon and Moroni abridged the plates and finished the testimony under their direct stewardship. Any knowledge of the Three Degrees of Glory through them would have been reflected in their own statements and in their editing of the plates. But we clearly see that Mormon and Moroni were just as bad as Nephi and Jacob who taught hellfire and eternal torment for those who reject the gospel or fail to live by a certain standard mandated by the Church.

Also, you should know that any of those so-called inspired Book of Mormon prophets including Mormon and Moroni who came hundreds of years after Christ should have been inspired by the Holy Spirit to reflect knowledge of the Three Degrees in their own writings. But they did not.

Hence, your argument in defending Smith’s Protestant beliefs expressed in Book of Mormon teachings is completely invalid.

Shulem
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Apologetics

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Dear Shulem,

The Three Degrees of Glory was a New Testament doctrine revealed through Christ to his apostles. The restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith brought that knowledge back into the world in 1832 as you have so noted in your posts.

Book of Mormon prophets were held to a different standard in light of this doctrine.

Joe Righteous



Dear Joe Righteous,

Jesus called twelve Nephite disciples and also three translated Nephites to minister to the people. We have word for word teachings in the Book of Mormon that are taken straight out of the Bible including some snippets of St. Paul. How can anyone say that the twelve disciples and the translated Nephites knew nothing about the Three Degrees of Glory which according to Smith are fundamental principles pertaining to judgement and eternal reward? Did not Christ call prophets to guide the Nephite sheep as he did the Jews in Jerusalem whereby they would hear one voice and follow one Shephard?

No sir, your excuses don’t justify Smith’s Protestant teachings in the Book of Mormon.

Shulem
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Apologetics

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Joe Righteous wrote:You fail to understand that the Book of Mormon is only citing doctrine in which they understood at that time. Their understanding of heaven and hell was limited and the doctrine of Three Degrees of Glory came later as understood by the New Testament apostles and later by Joseph Smith. Line upon line and precept upon precept is how the Holy Spirit revealed doctrine in Book of Mormon times.


Dear Joe Righteous,

Here’s the bottom line: The doctrine taught in the Book of Mormon is FALSE DOCTRINE and is not taught by the Church today. Doctrine pertaining to an afterlife with regard to being judged follows the pattern of the Three Degrees of Glory. The Protestant teachings contained in the Book of Mormon are avoided and not expressed as being correct doctrine of the Church. The Book of Mormon is wrong!

Sir, you have to justify to yourself how God allowed his prophets to preach false doctrine and scare the people into believing they will forever burn in hell if they fail to measure up and abide by the commandments -- thus being judged.

Shulem
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Re: That Same Spirit

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Let’s examine some revelations Smith received prior to the D&C 19 retraction of the commonly held view of endless torment and eternal damnation lasting forever in hell. The following revelations were received before D&C 19, wherein the Lord disclosed that eternal doesn’t necessarily mean eternal nor endless mean endless.

D&C 6:13 wrote: If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.

• Hold out faithful to the end
• Be saved in the kingdom of God
• Gift of salvation is the greatest gift God can give

QUESTION: What happens to those who are unworthy of obtaining the “gift of salvation” and are therefore NOT saved in the kingdom of God? What else is there other than the kingdom of God?

ANSWER: Refer to the Bible and the Book of Mormon; eternal damnation and hellfire forever!

D&C 8:4 wrote:Therefore this is thy gift; apply unto it, and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when, if it were not so, they would slay you and bring your soul to destruction.

• Oliver Cowdery is given a gift
• The gift will deliver him
• Without the gift his enemies would slay him
• The gift will save his soul from destruction

QUESTION: If Cowdery were to fail in exercising his gift and his enemies slay him, what will happen to him when his soul is brought to destruction?

ANSWER: Read the Book of Mormon! Or, D&C 10:22 “Satan stirreth them up, that he may lead their souls to destruction.”

D&C 10:55 wrote:Therefore, whosoever belongeth to my church need not fear, for such shall inherit the kingdom of heaven.

QUESTION: And what about those who are NOT of the Church? Do they need fear? Will they inherit the kingdom of Heaven?

ANSWER: Refer to the Book of Mormon. Or, deduce that from D&C 10:69 “And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.”

D&C 11:25 wrote:Deny not the spirit of revelation, nor the spirit of prophecy, for wo unto him that denieth these things;

QUESTION: You mean to say that good people who reject Mormonism are going to suffer some kind of “wo”?

ANSWER: Yes, wo unto them because they won’t inherit the gift of salvation which is the greatest gift God can offer. So they don’t get to go to heaven.

D&C 18:22 wrote:And as many as repent and are baptized in my name, which is Jesus Christ, and endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

What about those who are not baptized Mormons? Will they inherit the gift of salvation in the kingdom of heaven?

D&C 18:23 wrote:Behold, Jesus Christ is the name which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved;

Nope, only in the name of Jesus through the Mormons is the gift of salvation made available. And, if you’re not saved then you are damned. The same Protestant teachings are ringing through loud and clear by revelation of Jesus.

“Wherefore, if they know not the name by which they are called, they cannot have place in the kingdom of my Father.” (D&C 18:25)

“And after that you have received this, if you keep not my commandments you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father.” (D&C 18:46)
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Resurrection

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Coupled with the doctrine of the “gift of salvation” which is the “greatest of all the gifts of God”, there is also the doctrine of resurrection which is explicitly mentioned in the New Testament by Jesus himself. Christ states rather emphatically that there is a resurrection of life and a resurrection of damnation. Christian theology from the Protestant viewpoint is that a resurrection of damnation in no way has any part of Smith’s “gift of salvation” but is ever associated with hellfire and eternal damnation. The Book of Mormon follows the same suit. The Book of Mormon takes the teachings of the New Testament literally and these teachings of resurrection in no way whatsoever allude to the idea that there are various degrees of resurrection or salvation as later taught in Mormonism via Section 76. The concept is made perfectly clear, you’re SAVED or DAMNED, in that permanent and everlasting state, period.

Mosiah 16:10-12 wrote:Even this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption, and shall be brought to stand before the bar of God, to be judged of him according to their works whether they be good or whether they be evil—

If they be good, to the resurrection of endless life and happiness; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of endless damnation, being delivered up to the devil, who hath subjected them, which is damnation—

Having gone according to their own carnal wills and desires; having never called upon the Lord while the arms of mercy were extended towards them; for the arms of mercy were extended towards them, and they would not; they being warned of their iniquities and yet they would not depart from them; and they were commanded to repent and yet they would not repent.

Thus, we see that at the judgment bar everyone is judged and the decision is made whether they are good or evil and that resurrection and eternal reward or punishment is the end and final result:

1) Endless life
2) Endless damnation

Those who are resurrected to an endless state of happiness will become partakers of the “gift of salvation” and remain in heaven forever. But those who are consigned to an endless damnation are delivered up to Satan and go away with him forever being ever subject to him.

It’s black and white. It’s saved or damned, forever.

3 Nephi 26:4,5 wrote:And even unto the great and last day, when all people, and all kindreds, and all nations and tongues shall stand before God, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

If they be good, to the resurrection of everlasting life; and if they be evil, to the resurrection of damnation; being on a parallel, the one on the one hand and the other on the other hand, according to the mercy, and the justice, and the holiness which is in Christ, who was before the world began.

The message is plain and unmistakable. The resurrection of life is to be with God, forever. The resurrection of damnation is to be with Satan, forever. Both are an endless state. The final state of the righteous and the wicked. This is the very message Christ gave in the Bible. It’s also the very message contained in the Book of Mormon covering well over a thousand years of history when prophets discussed in detail an exact accounting of these future events.

It’s a parallel of two eternal states. On one hand it’s endless life and on the other hand it’s endless damnation. Neither end but are on an eternal course going forever and ever. That is what endless means.
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Eternity

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Moroni 8:8 wrote:For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

Smith affirms that God is eternal. Not just eternal but from all eternity to all eternity. In this there is no beginning and no end. And if there is no beginning and no end then it is unmeasurable being from eternity to eternity.

The definition of eternity means it has no end. This is what Smith implied in his other uses of the word which we have been discussing in this thread. Alma beseeched his listeners to not procrastinate the day of repentance until the end of mortal life; for after this day of life, is given to prepare for eternity! In Enos we read more of the same whereby “the duration of eternity, and the judgments and the power of God, and all these things—stirring them up continually to keep them in the fear of the Lord.”

The message of the Book of Mormon is plainly read and there is no room for miscalculation regarding the definition of ETERNITY. If God is eternal and he says his judgement is eternal then it must also be that his judgement is forever and ever and has no end -- thus ENDLESS, even as he is!

Jacob 7:18 wrote:And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.
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Re: That Same Spirit

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The Church proclaims that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the gospel but we have pretty much learned that it does NOT contain a fulness. It doesn’t teach the modified and expanded version given later by Joseph Smith about heaven and hell and the Three Degrees of Glory. The Book of Mormon falls short of the glory of God and is anything but a fulness. It’s a partial dose of Smith’s early understanding of what he wanted to develop in his new religion which he claims was a restoration. But we clearly see the Nephites had no idea what Joseph Smith was talking about. So, the only thing restored on that front was the old stuff that was later disavowed.

Further, we see that apologists defend the absence of this doctrine because God wanted to scare the people and cause them to fear and worry that if they don’t obey they will burn forever and suffer a tortuous fate with the devil in eternity. Thus, the Mormon God prior to Smith’s 1832 new discoveries had a completely different message than what you hear today in modern Mormonism. Reading the Book of Mormon in 1830 or 1831 and it sounds just like the Bible with heaven and hell and being damned forever if you don’t join our church.

Not buying it. None of it.
Last edited by Shulem on Thu Aug 26, 2021 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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