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The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

Ed Goble wrote:What the Critics Have Wrong

(1) The critics are wrong that Joseph Smith could not translate, because Nibley’s and others’ work on the Facsimiles demonstrate reasonably that he could, though not in the way people are used to when it comes to the Facsimile material.

The way people are used to? What ever does that mean? When you translate French into German the people are used to it according to how the language is translated. It's simply a matter of translating one language into another. That is exactly what Smith claimed to do; just as he claimed to translate the reformed hieroglyphic language on the gold plates.

EGYPTIAN INTO ENGLISH, period.

"Fig. 5. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand."

How do you spell Shulem?

How do you spell Ed?

How do you spell Paul?
drumdude
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

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What happened last time that hurt his feeling so badly that he won't reply, Paul?
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

Ed Goble wrote:2) The critics are wrong in their dismissal of the ancient traditions about Abraham that the apologists have marshalled in favor of the Book of Abraham

No, the critics aren't wrong when they dismiss those parallels as evidence to prove the papyrus used by Smith including the Facsimiles are not a correct translation! The fact is, Smith translated nothing right. The critics don't care about parallels. We only care about the facts.

And let me tell you a fact:

There is no king's name in Facsimile No. 3. It's not even an earthly scene. It's a heavenly scene. It doesn't even take place in Egypt! Now, that's a fact.
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

Ed Goble wrote:(2) The Breathing Permit of Hor and the copies of the Books of the Dead do not have the text of the Book of Abraham on them, and the Book of Abraham text in the Egyptian Language was never extant in modern times

Please provide a citation from Joseph Smith or Oliver Cowdery to substantiate your wild claim which contradicts their claims. I can cite plenty of material to shows that Smith and Cowdery claimed to have possessed the very papyrus written by Abraham's own hand thousands of years ago. And you, Ed, ask us to believe YOU? Who are you? Who are you to trample over the statements made by Joseph Smith and the second elder of the Church? If you were to preach that in Kirtland, you'd find yourself cast out of the Church.

In this particular case, I believe Joseph Smith & Oliver Cowdery, NOT you. Sorry buddy.
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

Ed Goble wrote:3) Abraham really was the original author of the Book of Abraham anciently, but all copies were lost in ancient times and none are extant in modern times.

Again, you directly contradict Joseph Smith's sworn statements to the opposite. Smith NEVER said anything about having a copy of a copy. He claimed to have the genuine original document in his possession. He claimed the actual document was as old as Abraham. Not only was the document as old as Abraham but it was written by his own hand.

Sorry, Ed. But you are so wrong.
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

Ed Goble wrote:(4) Joseph Smith was the mastermind behind the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, and all of the content of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers represents real revelations to a prophet of God. Apologists need to defend the translations in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers the same way they defend the facsimiles and their explanations.

Wow. You really think so? John Gee won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. NOT on any Egyptian king's list or Egyptian royal records.

Valuable Discovery of hidden records that have been obtained from the ancient burial place of the Egyptians, Joseph Smith Jr. wrote:ImageKatumin, Princess, daughter of On-i-tos Pharaoh- King

of Egypt, who began to reign in the year of the

World 2962

Katumin was born in the 30th year of the reign of her

father, and died when she was 28 years old, which was

the year 3020.
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

Ed Goble wrote:It is not one to “pseudepigraphize” away or to explain away by saying that Abraham never really wrote the Book of Abraham text in ancient times. To literalists like me, that is not an acceptable sacrifice, and one I personally am not willing to make

That's a big word and it buzzes all over the place.

I'm afraid you'll just have to learn how to make the sacrifice and accept the evidences and proofs for what they are. Otherwise, you're left defending lies. What kind of life is that, defending lies?

Been there done that.
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

Ed Goble wrote:One thing that is observable is that none of the Facsimiles of the Book of Abraham contain the text or any of the information in their Explanations either, yet the Church considers those explanations material that was a translation of some kind.

A translation of "some kind"? What kind of translation is that? A translation from German to French can always be translated back from French to German. Everyone who knows those two languages can do it. That is translation. The same is true of Egyptian and English.
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

And now, if I may, I'd like to make some comments on the overall gist of the article. It seems to me that the article was written by two people, or the first half was heavily edited by someone who really knows how to write. The first half was outstanding! I was really impressed with the writing skills of the first half of the article. That was very impressive! It sounded like Ed had a hand in it but someone behind the scenes pretty much rewrote it and edited it.

The second half which dealt strictly with Book of Abraham technical issues was definitely written by Ed with a lot less editing from whoever helped on the first half. That's okay, I'm not complaining or criticizing his writing -- not at all. I'm only pointing out that the differences between the two halves was glaringly obvious. It was like being in college and then having to go back to high school.

Anyway, Ed should be commended for his efforts in doing everything possible to save the Book of Abraham. Once everything has been exhausted and shown that it doesn't work then the apologists can just close shop and go home.
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Shulem
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Re: Apologists Peddling False Narratives

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Aug 27, 2021 2:35 am
Ed Goble wrote:(4) Joseph Smith was the mastermind behind the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, and all of the content of the Kirtland Egyptian Papers represents real revelations to a prophet of God. Apologists need to defend the translations in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers the same way they defend the facsimiles and their explanations.

Wow. You really think so? John Gee won't touch it with a ten-foot pole. NOT on any Egyptian king's list or Egyptian royal records.

Valuable Discovery of hidden records that have been obtained from the ancient burial place of the Egyptians, Joseph Smith Jr. wrote:ImageKatumin, Princess, daughter of On-i-tos Pharaoh- King

of Egypt, who began to reign in the year of the

World 2962

Katumin was born in the 30th year of the reign of her

father, and died when she was 28 years old, which was

the year 3020.

This is a prime example to show that Smith was inventing history out of whole cloth and playing with names and dates. That is exactly what he did with the Book of Mormon, Book of Moses, and the Book of Abraham. It's all made up -- fiction.

Smith was creative and inventive and he knew how to manipulate information from other source material and incorporate it into his own work. Smith was a master storyteller.
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