Tobin wrote:Faith in God doesn't work that way. You can't snap your fingers and have God just appear for you. You're unlikely to get anywhere with that kind of approach. And you don't exercise faith in God through arrogance. You do so by loving other people, serving them, showing them kindness, acceptance, and so on. It is by showing your love of God through how you act and think that you can grow closer to God.
You still don't get it! I never thought I could just snap my fingers and have God just appear for me or that I could exercise my faith in God through arrogance. Did you not read the part where I tried the Moroni challenge for years? I still maintain that only arrogance on my part could lead me to conclude that my spiritual insight (if I thought I had any such thing) would be necessarily more correct than the claimed spiritual insight of anyone else with contrary religious convictions.
As for ". . .loving other people, serving them, showing them kindness, acceptance, and so on", I couldn't agree more that there is no better way to serve a loving God than that. What else could we possibly offer to a loving, omnipotent being that could favorably affect him in any way? This is a good idea, whether or not there is any such thing as God, and doesn't require that we accept a whole bunch of doctrinal nonsense based only on faith.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Surat Al-Rahman (Chapter 55), Verse 33 O You jinn and men, if you can penetrate zones of the heavens and the Earth, then penetrate! You will never penetrate them except with (the) power (of science).
Tobin wrote:Faith in God doesn't work that way. You can't snap your fingers and have God just appear for you. You're unlikely to get anywhere with that kind of approach. And you don't exercise faith in God through arrogance. You do so by loving other people, serving them, showing them kindness, acceptance, and so on. It is by showing your love of God through how you act and think that you can grow closer to God.
You still don't get it! I never thought I could just snap my fingers and have God just appear for me or that I could exercise my faith in God through arrogance. Did you not read the part where I tried the Moroni challenge for years? I still maintain that only arrogance on my part could lead me to conclude that my spiritual insight (if I thought I had any such thing) would be necessarily more correct than the claimed spiritual insight of anyone else with contrary religious convictions.
As for ". . .loving other people, serving them, showing them kindness, acceptance, and so on", I couldn't agree more that there is no better way to serve a loving God than that. What else could we possibly offer to a loving, omnipotent being that could favorably affect him in any way? This is a good idea, whether or not there is any such thing as God, and doesn't require that we accept a whole bunch of doctrinal nonsense based only on faith.
What is the difference between snapping your fingers and waiting a week, a year, a decade and then giving up? It is still the same attitude. Answer me now (or specifiy a time period) or I'm out of here. That is the attitude that I'm talking about that isn't likely to succeed and it isn't faith in God.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: What is the difference between snapping your fingers and waiting a week, a year, a decade and then giving up? It is still the same attitude. Answer me now (or specifiy a time period) or I'm out of here. That is the attitude that I'm talking about that isn't likely to succeed and it isn't faith in God.
This is just the usual apologetic of blaming the member for not doing it right or not having the right attitude. Sorry but I don't see it for most I know. I am not sure why God would think that someone should keep believing for years without any answer from him. That said I believed even after starting to realize the spiritual experience is not a reliable method of learning truth for some of the reasons given in the OP. It was when I started to learn more of the evidences available showing the church has little if any chance that Joseph's claims are accurate.
Tobin wrote:What is the difference between snapping your fingers and waiting a week, a year, a decade and then giving up? It is still the same attitude. Answer me now (or specifiy a time period) or I'm out of here. That is the attitude that I'm talking about that isn't likely to succeed and it isn't faith in God.
In other words, you are saying or at least implying that the questioner should decide in advance what the answer should be and not stop asking until that is the answer received. I have asked of others before "how long should I persist in asking God if the Book of Mormon is true?" The usual answer is "until you get the answer that it is indeed true." If one is to decide in advance what answer one will accept, and keep asking until one gets that answer, what is the point of asking the question in the first place?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Tobin wrote:What is the difference between snapping your fingers and waiting a week, a year, a decade and then giving up? It is still the same attitude. Answer me now (or specifiy a time period) or I'm out of here. That is the attitude that I'm talking about that isn't likely to succeed and it isn't faith in God.
In other words, you are saying or at least implying that the questioner should decide in advance what the answer should be and not stop asking until that is the answer received. I have asked of others before "how long should I persist in asking God if the Book of Mormon is true?" The usual answer is "until you get the answer that it is indeed true." If one is to decide in advance what answer one will accept, and keep asking until one gets that answer, what is the point of asking the question in the first place?
We aren't talking about whether or not to believe and show faith in God. If you don't want to, that is your right. But don't pretend to. That will never work. This is something that you decide you are going to do or that you are not going to do - there is no try. Don't think you can fool God.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:We aren't talking about whether or not to believe and show faith in God. If you don't want to, that is your right. But don't pretend to. That will never work. This is something that you decide you are going to do or that you are not going to do - there is no try. Don't think you can fool God.
You still don't get it or understand me at all! You leap to the unwarranted assumption that I never had faith in God when I first started to ask or that I didn't want to have faith in him. I only started to lose that faith after years of not getting a clear answer, and observing that others sincerely (as far as I could tell) believed they got answers from God that contradicted the answers that the Moroni challenge and LDS authorities promised I would get. Then when I learned some of the facts of Mormon history the Church doesn't want us to know about, Joseph Smith's lying about polygamy, his marrying other men's wives, the truth about the Chandler papyri, etc., I eventually could no longer avoid the conclusion that Joseph Smith was, at best, a pious fraud.
Yet, I have very happy memories of growing up in a loving, Mormon family and participating in MIA as a youth. My most beloved friends and family members were and still are faithful Mormons. This only made it hurt all the more to find out how much I and they had been deceived by the Church all my life.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Tobin wrote:We aren't talking about whether or not to believe and show faith in God. If you don't want to, that is your right. But don't pretend to. That will never work. This is something that you decide you are going to do or that you are not going to do - there is no try. Don't think you can fool God.
You still don't get it or understand me at all! You leap to the unwarranted assumption that I never had faith in God when I first started to ask or that I didn't want to have faith in him. I only started to lose that faith after years of not getting a clear answer, and observing that others sincerely (as far as I could tell) believed they got answers from God that contradicted the answers that the Moroni challenge and LDS authorities promised I would get. Then when I learned some of the facts of Mormon history the Church doesn't want us to know about, Joseph Smith's lying about polygamy, his marrying other men's wives, the truth about the Chandler papyri, etc., I eventually could no longer avoid the conclusion that Joseph Smith was, at best, a pious fraud.
Yet, I have very happy memories of growing up in a loving, Mormon family and participating in MIA as a youth. My most beloved friends and family members were and still are faithful Mormons. This only made it hurt all the more to find out how much I and they had been deceived by the Church all my life.
Actually, I understand you just fine. You are, in my view, mistaken. That is all. What I'm trying to explain to you is seeking and speaking with God is not something you casually take on. You must be like Guatama and be prepared to sit under your Bodhi tree until you reach enlightenment - not until you get bored. Guatama didn't just try it for a day, or a year and then said, "That's it. I'm done. I haven't reached enlightenment. Time to do something else." No. Guatama was going to sit under the Bodhi tree UNTIL he reached enlightenment, no matter how many liftetimes it took. This is what it takes to seek and speak with God. Clearly, something you are unwilling to do and is precisely why you have failed.
It is as Yoda says to Luke in Star Wars when he says it is too hard. He says, "Do! or Do Not! There is no try."
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Instead of focusing on how you perceive what others believe to be Truth, and all of the contradictions you see in this due to the existence of so many different religions, I would like to first ask a basic question. Do you believe there is a God?
Gunnar wrote:That's what I used to think until I repeatedly tried it without ever getting it to work for me. The fact still remains that numerous people have tried it and come up with mutually contradictory answers. Suppose I did get what I thought was an answer from God. Other than sheer arrogance and hubris, what justification would I have for assuming that my own spiritual insight was superior to or more reliable than that of anyone who got a contradictory answer?
finally the nutshell "it didn't work for me, i ran out of patience, so therefore it doesn't work." "I prayed to God and He did not answer me, or did not answer me the way i wanted, therefor God must not exist"
like i said, there is a real disconnect with your original premise.
and the ever faithful idea that anything one receives "from God" must actually be "self" generated...but more importantly you seem to state that several people have tried Moroni's challenge and received, allegedly, contradictory answers...hmmm...provide an example?, then we can baby step you through this... (obviously you have still not researched the Moroni challenge thread for your much needed primer)
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent