The Bottom Line

[_Drifting]

but more importantly you seem to state that several people have tried Moroni's challenge and received, allegedly, contradictory answers...hmmm...provide an example?, then we can baby step you through this... (obviously you have still not researched the Moroni challenge thread for your much needed primer)

I am an example.
I did everything right, as per Moroni's challenge.
I had the right desire, the right level of humbled heart etc.
No answer. Time and time and time again nothing but a stupor of thought. I really wanted to know.

When I switched the question of my prayers (after 18 months) to "is the Church not true?" I was moved by a strong spiritual experience that washed through me giving me an uplift I had not felt before.

I know that was the Spirit telling me the Church was not true.

[Guest]

Hello Gunnar!

Instead of focusing on how you perceive what others believe to be Truth, and all of the contradictions you see in this due to the existence of so many different religions, I would like to first ask a basic question. Do you believe there is a God?

Blessings,

jo

I used to be fairly sure that there is a God. I am certainly much less sure of that now than I used to be. I can't honestly claim to know with certainty whether or not there is a God or that I ever did. I definitely do not believe in the cruel, sadistic and vindictive God of the Old Testament, or in a God that would have sent an angel with a flaming sword to Joseph Smith to threaten him with death if he did not institute polygamy, or who would have authorized him to marry other men's wives while they were conveniently out of the way on missions he had sent them on.

I would like to add that the very fact that there are so many mutually contradictory religious beliefs that their respective advocates sincerely believe are a product of divine inspiration or direct revelation casts legitimate doubt on the existence of God--or at least a God that reliably responds to individual prayers and entreaties.

[_Gunnar]

That's what I used to think until I repeatedly tried it without ever getting it to work for me. The fact still remains that numerous people have tried it and come up with mutually contradictory answers. Suppose I did get what I thought was an answer from God. Other than sheer arrogance and hubris, what justification would I have for assuming that my own spiritual insight was superior to or more reliable than that of anyone who got a contradictory answer?

finally the nutshell
"it didn't work for me, i ran out of patience, so therefore it doesn't work."
"I prayed to God and He did not answer me, or did not answer me the way i wanted, therefor God must not exist"

I did not have any preconceptions on precisely how God would answer me, other than something like the "burning or swelling in the bosom" promised or implied by Moroni and by Alma in Alma 32. All I know is that I never received any feelings of any kind that I could unequivocally attribute to anything other than my imagination and my fervent desire to believe.

like i said, there is a real disconnect with your original premise.

I disagree! The undeniable fact still remains that there are literally thousands of mutually contradictory religious belief systems based on subjective faith in divine inspiration and revelation. I still fail to see how any fully rational being can escape the conclusion that this fact alone is incontrovertible proof of the extreme unreliability of that approach to discerning truth.

and the ever faithful idea that anything one receives "from God" must actually be "self" generated...but more importantly you seem to state that several people have tried Moroni's challenge and received, allegedly, contradictory answers...hmmm...provide an example?, then we can baby step you through this... (obviously you have still not researched the Moroni challenge thread for your much needed primer)

You can't reasonably or honestly deny that the vast majority (at least all but one, in fact since no two of them entirely agree with each other) of these belief systems received "from God" must indeed be largely "self" generated, or from some source other than God, unless you want to maintain that God is deliberately, capriciously and maliciously trying to sow confusion and disharmony by giving contradictory revelations to different people and groups.

As for people receiving answers that conflict with yours, see Drifting's post above. And I have already pointed out to you Albion and Little Nipper who, as far as I can tell, are every bit as convinced that the holy spirit confirmed the falsity of the Book of Mormon to them, as you are that the Book of Mormon is true. I have not yet seen any explanation from you as to why we should regard your spiritual insight to be more reliable than theirs that is even the slightest bit reasonable or compelling. And I am not about to try to remember and document for you all the people I have ever encountered or heard about whose spiritual convictions are contrary to yours. You already know they exist!

[_jo1952]

I used to be fairly sure that there is a God. I am certainly much less sure of that now than I used to be. I can't honestly claim to know with certainty whether or not there is a God or that I ever did. I definitely do not believe in the cruel, sadistic and vindictive God of the Old Testament, or in a God that would have sent an angel with a flaming sword to Joseph Smith to threaten him with death if he did not institute polygamy, or who would have authorized him to marry other men's wives while they were conveniently out of the way on missions he had sent them on.

I would like to add that the very fact that there are so many mutually contradictory religious beliefs that their respective advocates sincerely believe are a product of divine inspiration or direct revelation casts legitimate doubt on the existence of God--or at least a God that reliably responds to individual prayers and entreaties.

Hello Gunnar!

I am going to suggest something which, perhaps, may surprise you; especially because I am LDS. You can take it or leave it. You don't know me; why take to heart any suggestions of a stranger? I wouldn't blame you one way or the other. Here goes:

Forget about ALL organized religions! You do not need ANY organized religion with its set or version of beliefs in order to have a relationship with God. Become as a child, hopeful and trusting and believing. Let God guide you. Shut out the voices of what man has ever told you about what you can or cannot believe. Until it is the Holy Ghost who is helping you traverse the path YOU choose (God will not take away your free agency), the rest of the stuff that looks so screwed up is not going to make any sense to you.

Give yourself a new start. Go some place private where no one can disturb or interrupt you. If you can't find that place in your home, then look outside your home. If you can (I don't know where you live), find some high place outdoors. If you live in a desert area, drive to the mountains. Then, find a private spot in nature. Sincerely ask for God's protection from any evil influences. Rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus Christ - and command him to leave your presence. Then, have it out with God. Open your mind and your heart. Yell, scream, pound your fists into the ground, rant, cry, swear; get it ALL off of your chest. Tell Him that you want to know if He exists. Tell Him your fears, your desires, ask Him why you can’t hear Him; TALK TO HIM!! Then be quiet and still. This is between you and God!

Know that there will be good spirits surrounding you who are in the spiritual realm. Know also that my spirit is reaching out to touch yours.

Blessings,

jo

[_Tobin]

...

jo,

I hope Gunnar will listen to you, but given the attitude expressed so far I'm extremely dubious. I was once like that. I thought the whole thing was a joke until God changed me. Now that I know the Lord is real, I know that small and still voice and welcome it when it comes. But, if you are not fully committed to the Lord and are ready to dismiss that voice as delusion - you can get nowhere.

Tobin

[_subgenius]

but more importantly you seem to state that several people have tried Moroni's challenge and received, allegedly, contradictory answers...hmmm...provide an example?, then we can baby step you through this... (obviously you have still not researched the Moroni challenge thread for your much needed primer)

I am an example.
I did everything right, as per Moroni's challenge.
I had the right desire, the right level of humbled heart etc.
No answer. Time and time and time again nothing but a stupor of thought. I really wanted to know.

When I switched the question of my prayers (after 18 months) to "is the Church not true?" I was moved by a strong spiritual experience that washed through me giving me an uplift I had not felt before.

I know that was the Spirit telling me the Church was not true.

ironic...because your original claim of doing "everything right, as per Moroni's challenge" is clearly incorrect...because the challenge asks not if the church is true at all.
This explains the latter as well, whereas your heart, desire, and humbled nature were clearly changed before you prayed.
Additionally, a bit of irony in the validation you give your own "burning bosom" while still maintaining that it is wholly unreliable on such matters.

[_Drifting]

ironic...because your original claim of doing "everything right, as per Moroni's challenge" is clearly incorrect...because the challenge asks not if the church is true at all.
This explains the latter as well, whereas your heart, desire, and humbled nature were clearly changed before you prayed.
Additionally, a bit of irony in the validation you give your own "burning bosom" while still maintaining that it is wholly unreliable on such matters.

I knew you'd wriggle away...wriggle wriggle wriggle.

[_subgenius]

ironic...because your original claim of doing "everything right, as per Moroni's challenge" is clearly incorrect...because the challenge asks not if the church is true at all.
This explains the latter as well, whereas your heart, desire, and humbled nature were clearly changed before you prayed.
Additionally, a bit of irony in the validation you give your own "burning bosom" while still maintaining that it is wholly unreliable on such matters.

I knew you'd wriggle away...wriggle wriggle wriggle.

so, you agree that your position on Moroni's challenge is bordering on hypocritical and that your subsequent declaration of "truth received" is wholly unreliable....duly noted, thank you.

[_Themis]

I noticed no one has dealt with the OP and his observations of the unreliable nature of the spiritual experience in giving one religious truth claims. All I see is people attacking him about not being good enough or doing enough(lazy, getting bored) or not spending enough life times trying to get an experience he has already seeing through his life as unreliable. From what I can see doubts may have naturally increased do to these observations, but it doesn't look like he stopped believing until he found evidence showing these truth claims are not accurate. This is actually true for most non-believers(LDS) here. It's not lack of evidence, but evidence against after usually seeing the spiritual experience as unreliable to give one universal truths.

[Guest]

I noticed no one has dealt with the OP and his observations of the unreliable nature of the spiritual experience in giving one religious truth claims. All I see is people attacking him about not being good enough or doing enough(lazy, getting bored) or not spending enough life times trying to get an experience he has already seeing through his life as unreliable. From what I can see doubts may have naturally increased do to these observations, but it doesn't look like he stopped believing until he found evidence showing these truth claims are not accurate. This is actually true for most non-believers(LDS) here. It's not lack of evidence, but evidence against after usually seeing the spiritual experience as unreliable to give one universal truths.

Thank you, Themis, for bringing attention back to the "Elephant in the Room" that most people seem to be ignoring. This is precisely how I have the situation pegged. There is also this: Most people are familiar by now with the saying that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Why is it that in seeking spiritual confirmation of some religious precept or ideal that it is somehow reasonable keep trying some prescribed method countless times until one gets one particular result, and just throw out all the previous trials of that same method, no matter how many, that did not yield that result? If God really wants us to know the truth about him or anything else, why would he be stupid enough to insist upon so hap-hazard a means of discerning or confirming it?

Subgenius foolishly claimed in his first response to my OP that even if only one of these religious belief systems really were the "divinely revealed truth" its adherents claimed it to be, that would somehow be sufficient evidence of the reliability of that approach to discerning truth. This would be like giving someone a gold medal for marksmanship who only managed to hit the target once in several thousand attempts!