The Bottom Line

[_Tobin]

God didn't call me as a prophet. So I'd recommend you follow God's advice to his prophets instead.

So you recommend that I should, if i want to see god, follow the advice of a bunch of people who have never seen god instead of following the steps that led to your "visitation"? I have never met someone that claims to have seen god by following "prophets" - I am much more interested in the steps that led to your hallucination/vision/visitation...Let your light so shine my man!

All of God's true prophets have seen and spoken with God, I'd recommend you follow what God directed them to say because that is why they were called in the first place. And we have their words in the scriptures, which are readily available.

And as I stated, I know there is a God. So, I hope you do seek God out and speak with him.

[_Albion]

As I said, a cop out. Given the two very clear passages I quoted, which you for whatever reason choose to ignore, my explanation of them not being worthy of a physical and literal confrontation with God in all his glory, they are hardly absurd. Your failure to respond is what is absurd in the face of the outrageous claim you make. You will get no more response from me on this topic...your cop out is plain to see.

[_Tobin]

As I said, a cop out. Given the two very clear passages I quoted, which you for whatever reason choose to ignore, my explanation of them not being worthy of a physical and literal confrontation with God in all his glory, they are hardly absurd. Your failure to respond is what is absurd in the face of the outrageous claim you make. You will get no more response from me on this topic...your cop out is plain to see.

You are entitled to your opinion, as incorrect and wrong as it is. I don't consider it worth responding to. As far as I, and most other posters are concerned, it is patently distorted and incongruous.

[_Themis]

I am leaving this thread now, and going on to something else. Any who want to continue this discussion without me, are welcome to do so. My heartfelt thanks to all who have participated--especially subgenius, Tobin, Little Nipper and others who have inadvertently done even more to validate the conclusions stated in my OP than those who spoke out in favor of it!

nice concession speech

I guess you have no problem with continuing to lie.

[_Themis]

huh?
i think you just summed up the error in the OP.
The fallibility of people is the result of that "decision making"...because the point is that if one is in a position to even make that decision, if someone is in the position to "weigh the evidence", then the experience, was in fact and by definition, NOT self-evident.

Like I said, if it was so self evident then only one or none here are having these self evident spiritual experiences. This is very clear by just watching some of the threads that go on here from people who claim objective knowledge from their spiritual expereinces.

Now I am serious in asking you how fallible humans can have infallible experiences? Every experience has no meaning until you give it one. One has to attach an interpretation.

and one can not possible believe that Gunnar "decided" that he ever loved or loves anyone or anything

Everyone does. We have the experience, which in this case is feelings people call love. The person then has to attach meaning/interpretation to that feeling. These usually can happen very quickly such that some like you confuse the difference between the feeling/experience and the interpretation we attach to them.

[_Themis]

All the prophets have taught that they have seen and spoken with the Lord and are relating his words to us.

THis would be incorrect. Many never mention any such experience, and some LDS prophets I believe have mentioned not having seen God.

IN FACT, the Moroni promise expressly invite people to seek the Lord and speak with him.

Actually the fact is, it does not. IT specifically say one will learn the truth from the HG. No mention of seeing God. Now I can undersatand if you mean communication from the HG as speaking with God.

I feel sorry for Mormons that leave the gospel because they do not understand this simple message. They do not truly seek the Lord till the see him and speak with him. Themis accuses me of being hypocritical when I say this, but he is being grossly inaccurate.

I have mentioned this is how you are seen by others you attack for assuming they have not sought God when you admit you didn't. I think I have done a fair bit of seeking God, but I know you will think are hearts were not in the right place and all that. Oh well.

The reason I feel sorry for people that do this is BECAUSE I have done exactly that. I have left Mormonism because I did not understand and only when the Lord came and chastised me did I truly understand what was necessary. I would hope others would not repeat my mistake and truly seek the Lord because of the suffering I went through when I realized the depth of my error.

Not worried about it. I have done a fair bit of seeking God, and I didn't stop believing just because I only got some experiences I thought at the time were from the HG. It was a little better understanding of where the experience is probably coming from and the amount of evidence against LDS truth claims. If God exists and is LDS I am not worried I will be punished for no longer believing. God cannot be fair and punish me anymore then you if he is not willing to show up.