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Mittens wrote:Man is as intelligent as God

"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself."

-Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith: Section 6: 1843-44, pg 353, 2

THE TRUTH

God is omniscient (knows all)

Bible
•I Kings 8:39 "...for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men."
•Isaiah 66:18 "For I know their works and their thoughts..."
•John 16:30 "Now are we sure that thou knowest all things..."
•John 18:4 "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him..."
•John 21:17 "And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep."
•Acts 1:24 "...Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men.."
•I John 2:20 "...God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things."

God is not omniscient according to Wilford Woodruff

God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Vol. 6:120

it would be an anomaly for the Book of Mormon to agree with Mormon teachings

2 Nephi 9:20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.

Moroni 7:22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

http://youtu.be/iFdHTorPh24

The Immortal Spirit

Section Six 1843-44, p.351

I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man; but it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall therefore just touch upon it, for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,--namely, the soul--the mind of man--the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through; if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

Section Six 1843-44, p.351

We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into you heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the old Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says "God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body."

Section Six 1843-44, p.353

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal8 with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

Section Six 1843-44, p.353

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

Section Six 1843-44, p.354

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man--on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man--the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Section Six 1843-44, p.354

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

Tobin wrote:Mittens,

You should really cite where you got your quote from and provide a complete quote. What you have done below is pure deceit and is not what Joseph Smith was talking about.

The section is actually titled, "The Immortal Spirit" and Joseph Smith is discussing that our intelligences have always existed as has God. What you present is purely false and a complete misrespresentation of what was being discussed.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Joseph-Smith/Teachings/T6.html

The Immortal Spirit

Section Six 1843-44, p.351

I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man; but it is impossible for me to say much on this subject. I shall therefore just touch upon it, for time will not permit me to say all. It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,--namely, the soul--the mind of man--the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don't believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. I will make a man appear a fool before I get through; if he does not believe it. I am going to tell of things more noble.

Section Six 1843-44, p.351

We say that God himself is a self-existent being. Who told you so? It is correct enough; but how did it get into you heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon the same principles? Man does exist upon the same principles. God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the old Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says "God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body."

Section Six 1843-44, p.353

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal8 with God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season: their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment, as it were; and they now exist in a place where they converse together the same as we do on the earth.

Section Six 1843-44, p.353

I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.

Section Six 1843-44, p.354

I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man--on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man--the immortal part, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Section Six 1843-44, p.354

Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

DrW wrote:Tobin,

If Mittens had stated that man's intelligence is the same as God's intelligence, then he would have been quoting Joseph Smith fairly and correctly. So while Mittens should have used the word intelligence instead of intelligent in his statement, he certainly has a point.

Joseph Smith is clearly saying that these imaginary entities he calls "minds" or "intelligence"s are eternal and that the one God has is the same as the ones possessed by ordinary human beings. Sounds to me to be a concept akin to that of the Thetans of Scientology.

The problem with Joseph Smith is that he mostly made up his religious BS up as he went along. Zelph, the Kinderhook Plates, Adam Ondi Ahman, the angel with the flaming sword, the Book of Abraham, and pretty much everything else that Joseph Smith taught has been shown to be pure fabrication. It is now obvious that his "teachings" were born of an overactive imagination and a willingness to deceive others, coupled a desire for more attention, sex and money than he happened to have at any particular point.

God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (King Follett Discourse)

Tobin wrote:

DrW wrote:Tobin,

If Mittens had stated that man's intelligence is the same as God's intelligence, then he would have been quoting Joseph Smith fairly and correctly. So while Mittens should have used the word intelligence instead of intelligent in his statement, he certainly has a point.

Joseph Smith is clearly saying that these imaginary entities he calls "minds" or "intelligence"s are eternal and that the one God has is the same as the ones possessed by ordinary human beings. Sounds to me to be a concept akin to that of the Thetans of Scientology.

The problem with Joseph Smith is that he mostly made up his religious BS up as he went along. Zelph, the Kinderhook Plates, Adam Ondi Ahman, the angel with the flaming sword, the Book of Abraham, and pretty much everything else that Joseph Smith taught has been shown to be pure fabrication. It is now obvious that his "teachings" were born of an overactive imagination and a willingness to deceive others, coupled a desire for more attention, sex and money than he happened to have at any particular point.

Actually, you start your response by making similarly false statements and mischaracterize what Joseph Smith actually said. It is like comparing apples and oranges and saying they are exactly the same because they are both a fruit. Yes, God is intelligent and so is man, but we have different orders of intelligence. In fact, you should be more than aware that Joseph Smith stated the following regarding God:

God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (King Follett Discourse)

DrW wrote: Tobin,

Please see my post above concerning Joseph Smith's habit of making things up as he went along. Taken together, Joseph Smith's descriptions of intelligence and intelligences as taken in context from his quotes on this page, are nothing more than self-contradicting mumbo jumbo.

If you wish to convince me otherwise, you can do so by providing a coherent and internally consistent descriptions or definitions of intelligence and intelligences that can be squared with the various quotes from Joseph Smith on this thread.

While doing so, please keep in mind that this universe is of finite age and that among Joseph Smith's many silly pronouncements, is the one wherein he claimed that all spirit is matter.

Good luck, you are going to need it.

Tobin wrote:

DrW wrote: Tobin,

Please see my post above concerning Joseph Smith's habit of making things up as he went along. Taken together, Joseph Smith's descriptions of intelligence and intelligences as taken in context from his quotes on this page, are nothing more than self-contradicting mumbo jumbo.

If you wish to convince me otherwise, you can do so by providing a coherent and internally consistent descriptions or definitions of intelligence and intelligences that can be squared with the various quotes from Joseph Smith on this thread.

While doing so, please keep in mind that this universe is of finite age and that among Joseph Smith's many silly pronouncements, is the one wherein he claimed that all spirit is matter.

Good luck, you are going to need it.

Actually, the quote I provided is quite clearly titled as is the material. It is not my job to teach you reading comprehension. You can make as many silly mischaracterizations of it as you wish (that hasn't stopped you from doing so with other topics in the past). I'm quite at ease stating the facts and letting others make up their own minds.

DrW wrote:Tobin,

Pretty much what I expected. You don't clarify, explain, or defend, because you can't.

Unfortunately for Mormonism, others have already made up their own minds. From all appearances, it looks as though about 99% of the population of the US does not believe Joseph Smith's BS.

(There are about six million members in the US, of which less than 40% believe strongly enough to be active in the Church. This means that there are likely only about 2.5 million or so Mormons who believe the Joseph Smith story. And I have seen surveys taken among faithful attending members that indicate that some 50% will admit to not believing the Joseph Smith story when allowed to respond anonymously.)

Anyway, we shall see how many of those who comment on this board are convinced by Joseph Smith's make it up as you go along cosmogony.