Dan Vogel versus the late Ted Chandler

[_vessr]

Hello members of the Celestial Forum.

This is my first post, so I’ll begin with a bit of an introduction:

I was a member of the church for more than 30 years, having converted to Mormonism at age 19 after receiving what I thought was a testimony “by the power of the Holy Ghost” that the Book of Mormon was true, and thus I assumed the Church was also true. I also thought I saw Jesus Christ through my closed eyelids while the missionaries were praying with me the night before my baptism. But it couldn’t have been him, because he had brown hair and I couldn’t describe him in the way Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon did for example, with his white hair, countenance and brightness of his robe.

A couple of years ago, I believed I had received different kind of “testimony” that led me away from the church. I believed with all my soul that I had found the Sealed Portion of the Book of Mormon, and its author. Because I ended up becoming the legal representative of the author I can’t say much more, less I be criticized or sued for breaching the attorney client privilege. So I will make the next stage of my “spiritual growth” or downfall brief:

I had a stroke a year and a half ago that caused me, due to some memory loss, to lose the ability to know whether my conversion to the Sealed Portion was true or my conversion to the Mormon Church was true.

This has led me to a stage of agnosticism, which I never experienced before, always having believed in God and some form of Christianity or its counterfeits since a child. Now, I search to know again if the Book of Mormon is a true history of the Nephites or Lamanites or the fabrication of one or more creative minds.

Although I hope, at the end of my search, to find out the latter concerning the book (because it would be much easier to live without the church than to go through the repentance process of rebaptism, etc.), the answer to my dilemma is important to me because there is too much at stake to getting this wrong.
With the above as background, I’d like to explain now why I am here and the question I am about to ask the Celestial beings in this group (or, rather, the beings who are part of this Celestial Forum of questioners and answerers).

I got here via the late Ted Chandler’s lengthy response to Royal Skousen’s “The Original Manuscript of the Book of Mormon.” Ted’s words led me to his criticisms by Dan Vogel, which led me here.

Ted’s response had seemed plausible to me—that the Book of Mormon was copied from another source document, primarily by Oliver Crowdery, rather than having been dictated by Joseph Smith. But I wondered why it mattered and have learned (I believe) that Ted’s response was supportive of his assumption (I think) that the Book of Mormon was copied materially from the writing of Spaulding.

Coming to this site by way of Googling Dan Vogel’s response to Ted, I’m in a quandary: which of these two impressive writer’s is correct, for Dan’s criticism of Ted’s analysis seems just as credible as Ted’s analysis.

Thus, in this war of words and tumult of opinions, I ask that question … or are they both wrong?

How did the debate finally end? Do I have the whole story on this site as to Dan’s response to Ted and to Ted’s counter-responses, if any? If Dan was correct, why would it matter in terms of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? For, couldn’t the book have been fabricated via dictation just as well as from copying another work?

Since I don’t believe in prayer, as an agnostic, I can get an answer only the old fashioned way … my considering the opinions, facts and arguments of others.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

As for the question that brought you here, I’m sorry to say that I have nothing helpful to offer, as I am not conversant in this particular debate. However, as someone who performs vascular studies on pre- and post-cerebrovascular patients, I can say that my heart goes out to you and that I wish you a speedy return to health and well-being.

At the risk of high jacking this thread, I’d like to ask you a question. In your post, you mention several spiritual experiences that occurred in the years prior to your stroke, e.g. receiving a testimony via the power of the Holy Ghost; seeing Christ through closed eyes. My question is this: Have you experienced any similar spiritual experiences after your stroke?

Again, I’m sorry for going off topic, and I hope someone more knowledgeable than I will provide you with the answers you seek. Thanks.

[_vessr]

Dear Erotic,

Thank you for your response and for your wishes for my well-being. I too hope not to derail the original post with a report on my health, but I have only some residual short term memory loss (besides the separate issue of losing my testimony).

You asked if I had any spiritual experiences since my stroke. I know of none. I believe now that my "seeing" Christ with my spiritual eyes (for my physical eyes were closed) was probably an hallucination. I have had several instances of brief moments of great peace and sense of well-being; but I beleive now that these were moments of chemical changes in my body, such as the so-called "cuddle hormone" that starts with an "O" (I'm too lazy to look it up now) that causes these euphoric experiences.

In the past, I attributed those experiences to "feeling the Spirit"; but the experiences continue even when I curse whatever God is out there and think the worse thoughts--I can't seem to think or say anything to offend this "Spirit"; and I can experience these feelings watching TV, mowing the lawn, or picking my nose. I assume many people experience these feelings, regardless of their faith or lack thereof; and the religious attribute it to spiritual experience. I know I used to. But not any more. Thus I can only rely on what's left of my brain to sort this out.

Back to the question at hand ... as I do not pray I must "study it out in my mind" and leave the "asking God" to others. Regardless of whether one thinks I'm mistaken in not thinking prayer is relevant to my query, I have no choice as I have no belief system at this time that would lead me to prayer; and I would if I had one, but I honestly don't. So, with as much sincerity as I can express, I truly want to know whether Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by some power given him of God or whether he or one or more of his colleagues made this all up. I was leaning toward's Chandler's theory of evidence of copying from another source, but then Vogel had to step in and throw some intelligent reasoning into the mix. I'm no longer smart enough to figure this out with as I might have once been; so, since I can no longer pray, I thought I would ask others who might be kind enough to head me in the right direction on considering how the Book of Mormon came to be. As a Mormon, I had read the book almost 30 times, and I still find it a beautiful book. I just don't know if it's "true" or not.

[_Quasimodo]

with as much sincerity as I can express, I truly want to know whether Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by some power given him of God or whether he or one or more of his colleagues made this all up.

There is a lot of discussion about the origin of the Book of Mormon. So many conflicting opinions and so very little existing evidence that it's hard to know what is true about it's origins.

I would suggest that you evaluate the histories of North America that it describes and decide if they are plausible. If the stories of the Nephites and Lamanites are false, the book is not true.

As far as I know (and I'm really up on this) in all the thousands of past archaeological studies and current archaeological studies, there has never been found a single ancient artifact that supports the Book of Mormon.

That should tell you a lot. Do some research on your own and see what you can find.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

I am, as always, fascinated by the relationship between head trauma and religious experience...or in this case, the lack thereof. Thanks again, Vssr.

[_vessr]

with as much sincerity as I can express, I truly want to know whether Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by some power given him of God or whether he or one or more of his colleagues made this all up.

There is a lot of discussion about the origin of the Book of Mormon. So many conflicting opinions and so very little existing evidence that it's hard to know what is true about it's origins.

I would suggest that you evaluate the histories of North America that it describes and decide if they are plausible. If the stories of the Nephites and Lamanites are false, the book is not true.

As far as I know (and I'm really up on this) in all the thousands of past archaeological studies and current archaeological studies, there has never been found a single ancient artifact that supports the Book of Mormon.

That should tell you a lot. Do some research on your own and see what you can find.

Dear Quasi,

You have suggested that I evaluate the histories of North America, the plausibility of which could help me establish, for myself at least, that the Book of Mormon and its history of Nephites and Lamanites is false, thereby making the book not true.

You have stated that “there has never been found a single ancient artifact that supports the Book of Mormon.”

You conclude: “That should tell you a lot.”

Your proposal and conclusion seem sound to me. I have done the research and evaluation you suggest, and I concur that “there has never been a single ancient artifact that supports the Book of Mormon” (although there have been some faith-promoting close calls and interpretations to the contrary).

My adult Mormon children would respond with, “Dad, that’s because we are asked to accept the Book of Mormon on faith, and to plant the seed unto it grows into a testimony.”

Having no seeds left to plant, I can only go back to the basics, which leaves me still with the bare naked question whether the Book of Mormon (even if its history is allegoric) is a true translation from God or a fabrication.

I still need to find out if Joseph Smith lied about the translation, or somehow believed it was a translation and it was not, or got it right that it was a translation from God.

I thought I could answer the question by researching all of the Book of Mormon borrowings from the New Testament (I wouldn’t call it plagiarism because the Bible is in the public domain). That led me to Skousen’s “The Original Manuscript of the Book of Mormon,” which led me to Ted Chandler’s evaluation of what that document shows us in terms of scribes’ copying the text from another source or receiving it as dictation from a prophet’s mouth; and that led me to Vogel’s criticism of Chandler’s work, which led me to this forum.

I'm not sure if you've studied the Vogel and Chandler debate, but your mind is a good one and you give me hope that it could be resolved simply as you describe it—by considering that there is no evidence of the Nephites or Lamanites in the ancient Americas.

But, still, I was hoping to learn through studying the analyses of others (1) whether the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon was copied from another source or received as dictation, and (2) does it matter whether it was copied or dictated?

[_Tobin]

vessr,

I'm sorry about what has occurred in your life. It is unfortunate to lose part of your faculties. However, if you are reevaluating your belief in Mormonism, I would do it on the basis we ask all investigators to do so. That is that one should speak with God and do as God asks them to do. If you are going to review your beliefs in a religion based on historical or archeological evidence, you are foolish. There is no reason to believe in ANY religion on that basis. There is simply no historical or archeological evidence that proves there is a God, or that Jesus Christ was the son of God, that he did miracles or taught any of the things he did. It is simply a ridiculous proposition to begin with and if that is what you intend to use to evaluate your religious beliefs instead of seeking and speaking with God directly, I'd suggest you just skip the process entirely and simply not believe.

[_vessr]

vessr,

I'm sorry about what has occurred in your life. It is unfortunate to lose part of your faculties. However, if you are reevaluating your belief in Mormonism, I would do it on the basis we ask all investigators to do so. That is that one should speak with God and do as God asks them to do. If you are going to review your beliefs in a religion based on historical or archeological evidence, you are foolish. There is no reason to believe in ANY religion on that basis. There is simply no historical or archeological evidence that proves there is a God, or that Jesus Christ was the son of God, that he did miracles or taught any of the things he did. It is simply a ridiculous proposition to begin with and if that is what you intend to use to evaluate your religious beliefs instead of seeking and speaking with God directly, I'd suggest you just skip the process entirely and simply not believe.

Dear Tobin,

Let’s start with the premise that there is a loving Heavenly Father who cares more deeply about me than any earthIy father, mother, friend, or acquaintance could. He might also think it unfortunate that I lost part of my faculties to a stroke. Or it may serve a greater purpose in his plan for my ultimate well-being. But a loving father would not take my faith/belief gene away from me and cast me out because I simply wanted to use what faculties I have left to find Him. He might tell me, as you have, to skip the process of believing; but that is because he knows I’m not capable of believing without studying things out in my mind, again, what mind I have left.

He would not treat an investigator as a piece of meat to be thrown to the devilish wolves because he sought for Him with what faculties he have left. If I am not able, mentally, to “ask God” at this time, he would gently head me in the right direction. He would put the right people into my life to love and inspire me. He would not disown me as my son did when I believed that God was speaking through a Samual-the-Lamanite-type outsider who testified with as much fervor as any Mormon member of the Church that the Sealed Portion was upon the earth. He would not inspire my ex-wife to filed divorce papers because I investigated the Sealed Portion, studied it out, then asked God if it was right, and believed I had received an answer that it was. He would not have inspired those high councilmen who cast lots to see who would defend me at my excommunication court, and who were instructed to advocate for me, to weaken under the Stake President’s eye and to vote against me and in favor of my excommunication, even when my Bishop testified that, as a seminary teacher, I never asked one student to believe me, or even told them about my quest and findings.

Yes, I spoke with God several times in my life, and this is where I am now, unable to do it again in any genuine way without help from him or some loving soul that could teach me how.

My Father in Heaven would not tell me that I am foolish for seeking to find religion based on historical or archeological evidence, at least in part. (Quasi gave me some hope in this direction, and God would not take my hope away.) Yes, perhaps there “is no reason to believe in ANY religion on that basis,” for NONE of them stack up against the evidence.

God would not call my search to find out whether Joseph Smith fabricated the Book of Mormon or had assistance from others as “a ridiculous proposition.”

I have spoken to God many times in the past and this is where I am now in my life. I don’t criticize you, Tobin, in how you have counseled me as an investigator of Mormonism. But I cannot abandon my search at this time.

I am in the Nursery according to my status in the forum. If I am treated as one with childlike propensities, that might lead me somewhere out of the hole I am in. That is, if someone will extend that kind of love and care towards me.

[_bcuzbcuz]

vessr,

I'm sorry about what has occurred in your life. It is unfortunate to lose part of your faculties. However, if you are reevaluating your belief in Mormonism, I would do it on the basis we ask all investigators to do so. That is that one should speak with God and do as God asks them to do. If you are going to review your beliefs in a religion based on historical or archeological evidence, you are foolish. There is no reason to believe in ANY religion on that basis. There is simply no historical or archeological evidence that proves there is a God, or that Jesus Christ was the son of God, that he did miracles or taught any of the things he did. It is simply a ridiculous proposition to begin with and if that is what you intend to use to evaluate your religious beliefs instead of seeking and speaking with God directly, I'd suggest you just skip the process entirely and simply not believe.

I don't think you listened very well. Vessr says his present state of understanding is "agnostic". If an agnostic does not know if God exists it is absurd to tell them to ask God for guidance. The mere question precludes the obvious definition of agnosticism. Any answer assumed as received becomes truthfully "self-fulfilling prophecy".

Furthermore, thousands, if not millions, have, based on their already existing belief in a God or Gods, asked for guidance and received as varied responses as questions asked, receiving confirmation of Mary, Satan, Mohammed, Tarot cards or ghosts. You asked your question of your already affirmed God and you got the answer you wanted. Just because it worked for you does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that it will work for others.

[Guest]

vessr,

I'm sorry about what has occurred in your life. It is unfortunate to lose part of your faculties. However, if you are reevaluating your belief in Mormonism, I would do it on the basis we ask all investigators to do so. That is that one should speak with God and do as God asks them to do. If you are going to review your beliefs in a religion based on historical or archeological evidence, you are foolish. There is no reason to believe in ANY religion on that basis. There is simply no historical or archeological evidence that proves there is a God, or that Jesus Christ was the son of God, that he did miracles or taught any of the things he did. It is simply a ridiculous proposition to begin with and if that is what you intend to use to evaluate your religious beliefs instead of seeking and speaking with God directly, I'd suggest you just skip the process entirely and simply not believe.

I don't think you listened very well. Vessr says his present state of understanding is "agnostic". If an agnostic does not know if God exists it is absurd to tell them to ask God for guidance. The mere question precludes the obvious definition of agnosticism. Any answer assumed as received becomes truthfully "self-fulfilling prophecy".

Furthermore, thousands, if not millions, have, based on their already existing belief in a God or Gods, asked for guidance and received as varied responses as questions asked, receiving confirmation of Mary, Satan, Mohammed, Tarot cards or ghosts. You asked your question of your already affirmed God and you got the answer you wanted. Just because it worked for you does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that it will work for others.

What does that have to do with Mormonism? It is your understanding that is absurd here. If what Mormonism says about God is really true, then he's perfectly capable of answering us. Otherwise, he doesn't exist and it is a worthless concept. What vessr believes or doesn't believe here is completely irrelevant and besides the point. And your statement and analysis is just as useless in evaluating Mormonism. Mormons simply do not believe in a God that does not interact with us.

And I did not prescribe an answer, despite your lack of reading skills. I said seek and speak with God and do what he asks. So perhaps you are the one that should work on your reading comprehension and logic.