Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by MG 2.0 »

Hi Shulem, I appreciate what you’ve taken the time to contribute thus far. I haven’t, as of yet, seen anything that causes me to think that Joseph, even though he MAY have believed the scroll artifacts to be from the time of Abraham, also believed he was creating a scripture scripture project parallel or in any way comparable to the Book of Mormon.

At times Joseph was a bit of a braggadocio and impulsive.

If I remember correctly, at the time of the publication of the Times and Seasons there were some financial difficulties associated with the paper. As I think you said, Joseph was more or less on its editorial board. The paper was supposed to make a profit. The serial production of the Book of Abraham started to move the needle on the T&S’s profitability. Joseph undoubtedly became wrapped up in that.

It was a project, but was it literally scripture? I haven’t seen anything directly from Joseph that appears to be direct or hard fast evidence that he believed this to be so. Now did he think that he was more or less creating a midrash, of sorts, dealing with Abraham’s writings? I think so. But that doesn’t make it scripture in the literal sense.

Shulem, I am quite interested in your detailed response to my 2nd and 4th post on page seven of this thread. I think the questions I’ve asked are relevant and important to the conversation.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

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Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:36 am


The publication of the Book of Abraham in the Times and Seasons was a commandment given by God.
I don’t see where it says exactly that. So far you’ve been circling around the premise that you’re trying to support, but you haven’t really honed in on the core issues and questions that are still there after you go around in circles.

And I’m not criticizing you, per se, just the fact that I think you’re dancing around the core issues. The questions I’ve asked might bring us a little closer to helping me understand the importance and connection that the Book of Abraham had to the LDS movement before the canonization process in 1880.

I’m not seeing any evidence that Joseph wanted the Book of Abraham serialization from the T&S’s to become canonized scripture. I think he saw it more in the light of being a mid rash composition.

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MG
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:55 pm
Except for a few doctrinal teachings that seem to find their roots in the Book of Abraham there seems to be little use, comparatively speaking, of the Book of Abraham in the modern church. Or the JST for that matter. And it was never canonized.

Now if I’m wrong and I find out at some later date that there was no mistake about it, the Book of Abraham was authoritative scripture that was canonized as a direct result of revelation from God, then so be it. But I’m open to the possibility that because of whatever mitigating factors may have been going on back in the later 1800’s when this canonization occurred, there may have been a mistake made…and we are living with the results of that….then, it is what it is.

Actually, portions of the Genesis JST were canonized in 1880 via the Book of Moses. If I recall, the Book of Moses was a large part of that work. Many of those documents are available at the Joseph Smith Papers website. With regard to President Taylor and all of the General Authorities of the Church who sustained him -- the Pearl of Great Price was canonized and by the law of the Church must be received into the hands of every member today as canon and the word of God. The members today have no choice and no say. The thinking has already been done! The work was ratified and established. Members today can’t dismiss the Pearl of Great Price anymore than they can the Book of Mormon. So, you’ll just have to continue to accept that. It seems highly unlikely that President Nelson is going to remove the Book of Abraham from canon.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:50 pm
Hi Shulem, thanks for your contributions to this thread.

The PofGP wasn’t canonized until 1880. What was the hang up after the Saints came out to Utah? What was the catalyst story pre 1880 that finally led to its canonization?

MG,

My ancestors joined the Church not many years after it was organized and later came across the plains to colonize. I can only imagine it must have taken at least 20 years for the saints to get a good footing with industry and establish a reliable supply chain within the territory and abroad whereby trade was a necessary means to survive. Getting the land established and building communities and infrastructure had to be the most important goal at hand. The Latter-day Saints were already given a base or a foundation upon which to study the word of God: The Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants and Lectures on Faith. They had the word of the Lord and that in and of itself could keep every member busy for years if only they had time to read by a lantern at night after all the day’s work was accomplished. They could also read the word of God on the sabbath and gather about as families and in the churches.

When did the first printing press arrive in Salt Lake? I don’t know. But the Church had no means to publish until such mechanical equipment and supplies were available to expand into a more sophisticated society. So, what I’m saying is, they did not need more scripture. They had what they needed at that time. They also had the preaching of their leaders in their very midst.

Now, as it was, the Pearl of Great Price was published in England and the saints there were benefitting from the testimony of Moses and Abraham. The brethren in Salt Lake were aware of this and in no means objected. But in time it was determined that all the saints should have access to the Pearl of Great Price. For whatever reason, Brigham Young did not push to have additional canon published and bound in paperback during his ministry. Apparently, he was satisfied with the volume of material the saints already had.

When Taylor became President, he assumed the mantle. Perhaps he favored or esteemed the Book of Abraham more than Young seeing he was involved with the printing and publication at the Times and Seasons as I’ve already pointed out in another post. Surely, President Taylor was prayerful about how to proceed and enquired at the hand of the Lord whether the Pearl of Great Price should be canonized. I’m sure there were private councils held to that effect and the matter was discussed. I assume the brethren were unanimous in their decision to move forward and provide all the means necessary to canonize the Pearl of Great Price and make it generally available to all members of the Church.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by MG 2.0 »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:20 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:55 pm
Except for a few doctrinal teachings that seem to find their roots in the Book of Abraham there seems to be little use, comparatively speaking, of the Book of Abraham in the modern church. Or the JST for that matter. And it was never canonized.

Now if I’m wrong and I find out at some later date that there was no mistake about it, the Book of Abraham was authoritative scripture that was canonized as a direct result of revelation from God, then so be it. But I’m open to the possibility that because of whatever mitigating factors may have been going on back in the later 1800’s when this canonization occurred, there may have been a mistake made…and we are living with the results of that….then, it is what it is.

Actually, portions of the Genesis JST were canonized in 1880 via the Book of Moses. If I recall, the Book of Moses was a large part of that work. Many of those documents are available at the Joseph Smith Papers website. With regard to President Taylor and all of the General Authorities of the Church who sustained him -- the Pearl of Great Price was canonized and by the law of the Church must be received into the hands of every member today as canon and the word of God. The members today have no choice and no say. The thinking has already been done! The work was ratified and established. Members today can’t dismiss the Pearl of Great Price anymore than they can the Book of Mormon. So, you’ll just have to continue to accept that. It seems highly unlikely that President Nelson is going to remove the Book of Abraham from canon.
And I’m not dismissing it. The Jews accept midrashic compositions as spin offs of authoritative scripture. A kind of exegesis on the text. I see little or no reason to not consider the Book of Abraham to be in a similar caregory of ‘God’s Word’. In a sense it’s scripture but not of the same caliber as authoritative revelatory works. The Book of Abraham would still have some important doctrinal possibilities and insights while at the same time allowing for the interpretive framework which allows for possible errors.

I’m not saying that this idea that I’m putting out there is ‘gospel truth’. But the truth is, there have been controversies surrounding the Book of Abraham for a long time now. It might be useful to come at this whole thing from a different angle.

So far I haven’t seen anything that would convince me that the way I’m viewing things doesn’t have merit.

Still hoping you’ll give some time to the specific questions I’ve asked on page 7.

I’ll check back possibly later tomorrow. I’m helping out one of my daughters with laying sod most of the day it looks like.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by MG 2.0 »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:13 am
MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:50 pm
Hi Shulem, thanks for your contributions to this thread.

The PofGP wasn’t canonized until 1880. What was the hang up after the Saints came out to Utah? What was the catalyst story pre 1880 that finally led to its canonization?

MG,

My ancestors joined the Church not many years after it was organized and later came across the plains to colonize. I can only imagine it must have taken at least 20 years for the saints to get a good footing with industry and establish a reliable supply chain within the territory and abroad whereby trade was a necessary means to survive. Getting the land established and building communities and infrastructure had to be the most important goal at hand. The Latter-day Saints were already given a base or a foundation upon which to study the word of God: The Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants and Lectures on Faith. They had the word of the Lord and that in and of itself could keep every member busy for years if only they had time to read by a lantern at night after all the day’s work was accomplished. They could also read the word of God on the sabbath and gather about as families and in the churches.

When did the first printing press arrive in Salt Lake? I don’t know. But the Church had no means to publish until such mechanical equipment and supplies were available to expand into a more sophisticated society. So, what I’m saying is, they did not need more scripture. They had what they needed at that time. They also had the preaching of their leaders in their very midst.

Now, as it was, the Pearl of Great Price was published in England and the saints there were benefitting from the testimony of Moses and Abraham. The brethren in Salt Lake were aware of this and in no means objected. But in time it was determined that all the saints should have access to the Pearl of Great Price. For whatever reason, Brigham Young did not push to have additional canon published and bound in paperback during his ministry. Apparently, he was satisfied with the volume of material the saints already had.

When Taylor became President, he assumed the mantle. Perhaps he favored or esteemed the Book of Abraham more than Young seeing he was involved with the printing and publication at the Times and Seasons as I’ve already pointed out in another post. Surely, President Taylor was prayerful about how to proceed and enquired at the hand of the Lord whether the Pearl of Great Price should be canonized. I’m sure there were private councils held to that effect and the matter was discussed. I assume the brethren were unanimous in their decision to move forward and provide all the means necessary to canonize the Pearl of Great Price and make it generally available to all members of the Church.
I just saw this. I’ll have to read it later tomorrow if I get around to it.

Thanks for your interest and contributions.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:04 pm
And along with the questions asked above, what would have happened if those events that slowly(?)/quickly(?) led up to the canonization would have happened/transpired a little bit differently? It’s interesting to me that so much time went by between the Times and Seasons publication and official canonization in 1880.

When the pioneers fled west, they began a whole new life. It was a huge undertaking and the risks were tremendous. An entire community of people were uprooted from Nauvoo and the regions about to crudely transport themselves and all of their earthly possessions across the plains and the wild. I can only imagine that transitioning into a vibrant and industrious colony would take a generation. It wasn’t like changing locations back east like the saints had done on multiple occasion. This was a life and death adventure and the risks were enormous and the rewards equally so.

The Latter-day Saints didn’t need the Book of Abraham while getting established in Utah. They had plenty of the word of God and probably not enough time to give that its proper due seeing their lives were totally wrapped up in surviving and building a colony. Yes, this would take a generation, at least 20 years and as it was, more.

In my view it would have been foolish to attempt to canonize the Pearl of Great Price early on when settling in Utah. Too much of a distraction. The saints didn’t need that. What they needed was what they had and the will and determination to go forward in faith that more of the word of the Lord would come in the Lord’s due time.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG,

Of course, my reasoning for the delay of canonization is all speculation. I’m not privy to source material that may already explain these matters so I’ve offered my thoughts only. Brigham Young wasn’t much of a revelator like Joseph. He was a practical man and didn’t have the charismatic and inventive qualities Joseph possessed. Brigham Young for all intents and purposes closed the canon and accepted what had already been given as the outcome and was satisfied. Hence, we don’t get more D&C other than a practical update (D&C 136). In England the Pearl of Great Price seemed to be used as a proselyting tool and the saints there were using it. Taylor caught that vision and included it with the testimony of the saints, hence the 1880 canonization.

What really can I add other than my speculation? There must be history buffs out there that know more about what was said and by who. I just don’t know. Joseph Smith’s life was cut short. He died young and was not able to fulfill many of the things he anticipated doing. The failure of the Nauvoo House was a great disappointment for him. The Nauvoo temple was plagued with problems because of construction woes. Smith was experiencing continuous opposition. It seems the polygamy issue dogged him and the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was a final straw that set him into a tailspin.

I think it’s safe to assume that had Smith lived on he would have published more material from the Egyptian papyrus and likely canonized them in book form as an additional testimony to his work. Those are my thoughts and that’s about all I can reasonably offer based on my speculation for why Smith failed to canonize the work and why perhaps his successors were slow to do likewise.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:44 am
I'm not so sure, based on what he told everyone around him about having Abraham's signature, and them all excited saying the Book of Abraham was going to be bigger than the Bible, etc. Only if we ignore what he said could we see him just playing around with midrashic ideas. He always translated scripture and received actual revelations. I mean, it's a try at getting rid of the problem, the only issue is Joseph Smith is your road block.

The translation of the Book of Abraham was considered by all to be a sacred work and part of the mission given to Joseph Smith who was the ordained “Translator” of the Church. It was Smith who could take hidden records and bring them to light. That’s the kind of thing we read about in the Book of Mormon when seers reverenced lost records and included them into their own canon.

Oliver Cowdery is quoted as saying, “When the translation of these valuable documents will be completed, I am unable to say; neither can I give you a probable idea how large volumes they will make; but judging from their size, and the comprehensiveness of the language, one might reasonable expect to see a sufficient to develop much upon the mighty acts of the ancient men of God, and of his dealing with the children of men when they saw him face to face. Be there little or much, it must be an inestimable acquisition to our present scriptures, fulfilling, in a small degree, the word of the prophet: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

From that we certainly can gather that the papyrus was likened to as “scripture” that was to be restored through Joseph Smith. John Taylor as editor of the Times and Seasons said, “We have given this timely notice that our friends may prepare themselves. We would further state that we have the promise of Br. Joseph, to furnish us with further extracts from the Book of Abraham.”

I’m especially reminded how Joseph Smith while being interviewed by the honorable Josiah Quincy of the Quincy Whig newspaper received a confirmation from Smith himself attesting that the very frames containing fragments of the Abrahamic roll along with the translations would someday be hung on the walls of the temple. That certainly seems to point to the idea the works would join with the scriptures and be become one in thine hand. First the Book of Mormon, then the Books of Abraham & Joseph, and Moses too!

Am I making sense, Philo?
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:38 am
It was a project, but was it literally scripture? I haven’t seen anything directly from Joseph that appears to be direct or hard fast evidence that he believed this to be so. Now did he think that he was more or less creating a midrash, of sorts, dealing with Abraham’s writings? I think so. But that doesn’t make it scripture in the literal sense.

MG,

My friend, I don’t know how I can make it any clearer than to quote Joseph Smith who used all his power and authority in which he possessed in declaring that the mummies were 3,500 years old and that the records were at least that old or older seeing Abraham was the great grandfather of Joseph who possessed the records he obtained from his father, Jacob.

How much more clear need Joseph Smith be? He stated that the mummies had been entombed for 3,500 years and that the records were preserved on their very persons being sealed up and kept from the world for all that time. Other testimonials were also given that Smith reported the antiquities truly were biblical in nature and the age on order of some 4,000 years. Those testimonials come from those who wrote down what Smith said. But the statement I cited earlier given by Smith himself in the Times and Seasons should be all you need to know that the very records in question were ancient enough to have been written by the very hands of Abraham & Joseph and were in fact their own authentic records or autographs, SCRIPTURE restored by Joseph Smith.
Last edited by Shulem on Sat Sep 11, 2021 2:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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