Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

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Shulem
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:49 am
Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:36 am


The publication of the Book of Abraham in the Times and Seasons was a commandment given by God.
I don’t see where it says exactly that.

MG,

The “revelation” was given to Joseph on January 28th to prepare the press for the publication of the Book of Abraham whereby the first installment would be released and published on March 1st. That was hardly a month to set the type, perform the necessary editing, and run the press. Smith received a green light from God to publish the Book of Abraham and it *WAS* most certainly a commandment. Look at the language of the revelation:

God wrote:
“Verily thus saith the Lord unto you
my servant Joseph. go and say unto the Twelve
That it is my will to have them take in hand
the Editorial department of the Times and
Seasons according to that manifestation. which
Shall be given unto them by the Power of
My Holy Spirit in the midst of their counsel
Saith the Lord.”



Or in other words, GO publish the Book of Abraham as I have commanded you!
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:38 am
It was a project, but was it literally scripture? I haven’t seen anything directly from Joseph that appears to be direct or hard fast evidence that he believed this to be so. Now did he think that he was more or less creating a midrash, of sorts, dealing with Abraham’s writings? I think so. But that doesn’t make it scripture in the literal sense.

Let’s examine some solemn testimonials and see if it helps shed some light. A formal statement given to the saints describes the records written by Abraham & Joseph and that Joseph Smith was translating the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs of those books just like he translated the ancient reformed Egyptian from the gold plates into the Book of Mormon. More scripture was forthcoming!

Parley P Pratt, Millennial Star, July 1842, p.47 wrote:The record is now in course of translation by the means of the Urim and Thummim, and proves to be a record written partly by the father of the faithful, Abraham, and finished by Joseph when in Egypt. After his death, it is supposed they were preserved in the family of the Pharaohs and afterwards hid up with the embalmed body of the female with whom they were found.

The belief of what the Book of Abraham was originally thought to be is expressed at the time of canonization by the apostles. They were sacred writings kept in Egypt and were preserved on the bodies of the mummies. They were not just “sacred records” they were “INSPIRED WRITINGS” of Abraham while he was in Egypt. The record was just that and Joseph Smith translated it and restored it to its original form in the English language. That is what Joseph Smith claimed and his apostles stood by him in that testimony. Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses by President John Taylor, 1880, 20:64,65 wrote:The Lord told him they were sacred records, containing the inspired writings of Abraham when he was in Egypt, and also those of Joseph, while he was in Egypt; and they had been deposited, with these mummies, which had been exhumed.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:49 am
The questions I’ve asked might bring us a little closer to helping me understand the importance and connection that the Book of Abraham had to the LDS movement before the canonization process in 1880.

I’m not seeing any evidence that Joseph wanted the Book of Abraham serialization from the T&S’s to become canonized scripture. I think he saw it more in the light of being a mid rash composition.

I think we can see from the onset that Joseph Smith considered the sacred scrolls were original records of Abraham & Joseph being penned by their very own hands. What could be more fantastic than to have original writings of two of the most famous persons of the holy Bible and records of their lifetime experiences? Is this not scripture? Did not Smith say he would give a “more full account” of what was written on those scrolls? Yes, he did. And how would he do that? It would be unfolded to him through the peace and comfort he would receive of the Holy Ghost. The translation was of the Lord not of man. Smith was just an instrument in the hands of God.

Joseph Smith, HC 2:236 wrote:Soon after this, some of the saints in Kirtland purchased the mummies and papyrus, a description of which will appear hereafter, and with W.W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to my joy found that one of the rolls contained the writing of Abraham, another the writing of Joseph of Egypt, etc., a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth.
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Wilford Woodruff

Post by Shulem »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:38 am
At times Joseph was a bit of a braggadocio and impulsive.

I will agree with you on that point. But I doubt that the apostles who worked with Smith shared that concern.

Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, Vol. 2, p. 155, 19 February 1842 wrote:
The Lord is Blessing Joseph with Power to reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of God; to translate through the urim & Thummim Ancient records & Hyeroglyphics as old as Abraham or Adam, which causes our hearts to burn within us while we behold their glorious truths opened unto us.

Joseph the Seer has presented us some of the Book of Abraham which was written by his own hand but hid from the knowledge of man for the last four thousand years but has now come to light through the mercy of God. Joseph has had these records in his possession for several years but has never presented them before the world in the english language untill now. But he is now about to publish it to the world or parts of it by publishing it in the Times & Seasons, for Joseph the Seer is now the Editor of that paper & Elder Taylor assists him in writing while it has fallen to my lot to take charge of the Business part of the establishment.

I have had the privilege this day of assisting in setting the TIPE for printing the first peace of the B00K OF ABRAHAM that is to be presented to the inhabitants of the EARTH in the LAST DAYS.

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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:32 am
I’m gonna sit in the corner and listen. It is kinda nice up here.

Yes, it is very nice up here. The Celestial Forum is the golden spot of this board and a place where we can come together with goodwill towards each other and express ourselves and our understanding in a polite format without the usual bickering and banter that takes place down in Terrestrial. It’s a breath of fresh air up here.

Well, I’ve certainly responded to our friend MG quite heavily and have really made my case. I could add more testimonials and more content but I feel that would be over the top. It is sufficient. Now I only need wait for his responses and see how he has processed what I’ve presented and learn if maybe he is willing to shift a little or change how he sees things based on this thread. Who can say?

Do you feel that I’ve been making a good or reasonable case, Res?

I do plan to continue with the Jeff Lindsay paper, all in good time, I suppose. Wouldn’t it be something if Lindsay were to show up? He would be our honored guest!


Hi Jeff! Pleased to meet you.

:)
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Res Ipsa »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:21 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 4:32 am
I’m gonna sit in the corner and listen. It is kinda nice up here.

Yes, it is very nice up here. The Celestial Forum is the golden spot of this board and a place where we can come together with goodwill towards each other and express ourselves and our understanding in a polite format without the usual bickering and banter that takes place down in Terrestrial. It’s a breath of fresh air up here.

Well, I’ve certainly responded to our friend MG quite heavily and have really made my case. I could add more testimonials and more content but I feel that would be over the top. It is sufficient. Now I only need wait for his responses and see how he has processed what I’ve presented and learn if maybe he is willing to shift a little or change how he sees things based on this thread. Who can say?

Do you feel that I’ve been making a good or reasonable case, Res?

I do plan to continue with the Jeff Lindsay paper, all in good time, I suppose. Wouldn’t it be something if Lindsay were to show up? He would be our honored guest!


Hi Jeff! Pleased to meet you.

:)
I thought your explanation for why Smith did not seek to canonize the Book of Abraham before his death was a good case. I’m not sure I understand the significance of Smith dating the scrolls to the time of Joseph.
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Shulem »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:32 pm
I thought your explanation for why Smith did not seek to canonize the Book of Abraham before his death was a good case. I’m not sure I understand the significance of Smith dating the scrolls to the time of Joseph.

It’s fundamental evidence in demonstrating that the papyri were considered authentic autographs of the Patriarchs who wrote them -- namely, Abraham & Joseph. A longstanding apologetic argument continues to rage to this day because scientific proof confirms that the mummies and papyri were dated to Roman times 300-100 BC. Apologists have developed all kinds of theories and excuses to explain how the papyri were something other than what Smith said they were.

I trust Philo could elaborate on this issue. He wrote a paper on it!
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Res Ipsa »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:55 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:32 pm
I thought your explanation for why Smith did not seek to canonize the Book of Abraham before his death was a good case. I’m not sure I understand the significance of Smith dating the scrolls to the time of Joseph.

It’s fundamental evidence in demonstrating that the papyri were considered authentic autographs of the Patriarchs who wrote them -- namely, Abraham & Joseph. A longstanding apologetic argument continues to rage to this day because scientific proof confirms that the mummies and papyri were dated to Roman times 300-100 BC. Apologists have developed all kinds of theories and excuses to explain how the papyri were something other than what Smith said they were.

I trust Philo could elaborate on this issue. He wrote a paper on it!
Ah, got it. Thanks!
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Re: Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

Post by Canadiandude2 »

Well this thread was a fun read.

Particularly the apologetics.

:p
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Grade me, please

Post by Shulem »

Canadiandude2 wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:34 am
Well this thread was a fun read.

Particularly the apologetics.

Thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to read the thread and benefit from it. May I ask how you would grade my overall contribution? How would you rate the strength of my presentation in making my case so far?

[ ] Very weak
[ ] Weak
[ ] Fair
[ ] Strong
[ ] Very Strong

Also, do you have any questions you might like to pose or any advice on how I can improve my position?
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