Jeff Lindsay praises John Gee's book “Introduction to the Book of Abraham” as a tool to save his testimony

[Shulem]

As I’ve already said, there’s no reason that a midrashic composition, as we would describe it today, cannot also contain inspired/inspirational text and doctrinal exposition.

The same could be said for the Book of Mormon. I understand there are many people that believe in the restoration through Joseph Smith and feel the Book of Mormon is inspired writings but not a genuine historical account. Many critics of the Book of Mormon are convinced this will become the prevailing belief. Perhaps that is what will happen to the Book of Abraham?

But the Book of Mormon is a whole different thing all together. I just thought it would be appropriate to express that point. I don’t know your position on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and perhaps that’s not relevant to the discussion. It’s not without it’s problems as you must well know.

[Shulem]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but where again did Joseph, first person, say that the Book of Abraham was a translation given to him through the HG? Shulem pasted some quotes that could be indirectly interpreted to be saying that, but not necessarily. Far from it. Saying that the Holy Ghost is here…in one place…so it’s gotta be there…in another…is a reach.

MG,

The testimony of the apostles who worked and served under Joseph Smith have to mean something. Their words mean something! The publication THE SEER by elder Orson Pratt carries a lot of weight. Principles of the Book of Abraham were discussed therein including things about the astronomy (Kolob & Jah-oh-eh, etc.). But most important is the certified statement proclaiming the authenticity of the Book of Abraham as coming from divine providence. You recall, we had that discussion before and it was because of you I discovered that Anubis’s nose was missing because you got me thinking.

But anyway, on the bottom of page 68 of THE SEER in the link provided is this statement:

* Book of Abraham translated from
Egyptian papyrus through the gift and
power of the Holy Ghost, by Joseph the
Seer.

[Shulem]

Missionary Tract

By this great gift of the Spirit, he translated the Book of Mormon from the original language of the ancient inhabitants of America – a language entirely unknown to human wisdom at the present day. By this gift, he translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyrus, taken out of one of the catacombs of Egypt.

[Philo Sofee]

Missionary Tract

By this great gift of the Spirit, he translated the Book of Mormon from the original language of the ancient inhabitants of America – a language entirely unknown to human wisdom at the present day. By this gift, he translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyrus, taken out of one of the catacombs of Egypt.

Excellent materials to see how many of Smith's contemporaries viewed his prophetic mission of bringing forth more scripture, and with the same methodology, e.g., revelation, whether through a physical instrument or not. And Smith never corrected this impression, but was, according to many eyewitness accounts, the one instigating it in the first place. It helped "secure" his place as Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and Translator of the church, without question. Great work and sharing Shulem. I mean, sincerely, it hardly gets better than having the Pratt's explain it like this.

[Philo Sofee]

The Church is run and based on succession. The current and living prophet has charge over the affairs of the Church and all the congregation will say, “Amen”.

At the end of the day the living prophet has the final say.

After the Law of Common Consent is put into play.

I would like to have been in SLC during the time leading up to the vote to canonize the PofGP, including the Book of Abraham. What ‘politicking’ went on behind the scenes? What did that vote look like? Unanimous? Any dissenting votes? To think that that on one day…thirty years down the road from the time a booklet (adapted from a serialization in the T&S’s) was published in England…Pres. Taylor was able to (ramrod?) get the vote for canonization is actually pretty amazing. How did he do it? I’d like to have seen the smoke filled…… back room negotiations that went on.

And up to this point we don’t have any first person testimony from Joseph Smith that the Book of Abraham was destined to be scripture like unto the Book of Mormon. Interestingly, Joseph had much to say about the scriptural authority of the Book of Mormon.

Regards,
MG

Why would you suppose all the secret cloak and dagger politicking behind the scenes? Would that ever happen with anything from a church run smoothly and right on trajectory by God through revelation to his prophets, who all unanimously agree with all the revelations ever given? That surely is what chapel Mormons believe and are usually taught and believe, as we all well know, contrary to today's apologists on the internet who, for one reason or another, are comically offended by this obvious suggestion. Remember, hot chocolate and donuts with Jesus every Thursday morning in the upper rooms of the Salt Lake Temple for their weekly PPI interviews of all the brethren, and the new stuff Jesus wants them to teach and do...

[Philo Sofee]

MG on the Times & Seasons article on the Book of Abraham
This journalist/writer seemed to think so. But again, as I’ve repeatedly said, there doesn’t seem to be any proof/reason to believe that these writings were considered for canonization by either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young.

I see your point, and agree with you, they didn't appear to bother with canonization, but it is still considered scripture. Joseph received it by revelation, which made it scripture to him, and all those involved with that project including those who showed the mummies and papyri to the public. A later prophet canonized it several decades later and the church affirmed and accepted it as scripture at that later date. I honestly see no issue here. Time is fundamentally irrelevant. If it had waited for a vote until Harold B. Lee in the early 1970's it would not have mattered. It appears to me that your stance assumes only Joseph Smith was a real prophet and only his view mattered. In that sense, the blacks should have never gotten the priesthood, and Spencer W. Kimball appears to be on the line here. That surely can't sit well with you however, can it? Is there to be no further canonization after Joseph died? Does that not destroy the very foundation of revelation to prophets which Mormonism claims to be based squarely upon, including the theme (by a prophet!) that the living prophet is more important and correct than any dead prophet. It is what the living prophet says is all that matters. Ezra Taft Benson, and Gordon B. Hinckley, and Russell M. Nelson have all taught this, as prophets in their office. They do not hark back to only what Joseph Smith thought and taught and said in order to carry on the work of the Lord do they?
I am honestly not trying to smack down here in any manner, just thinking out loud as to why it is such a huge deal for you... you are appearing as radical as Shulem, Xenophon, and I appear to apologists in your argument. None of us believe the later prophets are valid either, it appears to me that this is your stance with this particular argument is all.

[Shulem]

MG on the Times & Seasons article on the Book of Abraham
This journalist/writer seemed to think so. But again, as I’ve repeatedly said, there doesn’t seem to be any proof/reason to believe that these writings were considered for canonization by either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young.

I see your point, and agree with you, they didn't appear to bother with canonization, but it is still considered scripture. Joseph received it by revelation, which made it scripture to him, and all those involved with that project including those who showed the mummies and papyri to the public. A later prophet canonized it several decades later and the church affirmed and accepted it as scripture at that later date.

Scripture is the sacred writings of the prophets given by the influence of the Holy Spirit. The Latter-day Saints while under Joseph Smith’s administration had a sizable corpus in their existing canon which was their selection of sacred writings. It was inevitable that the volumes therein would continue to grow or enlarge through restoration and that publication and formalization of these works would manifest. The vision of Moses was one of those works and thus we have the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price. That is an amazing work and one of Joseph Smith’s major contributions.

The church today is run by an administration that manages policies through various affairs of Church departments and interrelates with society and governments worldwide. It has become a policy making management organization and lacks the revelatory grandeur that was prevalent in the days of Joseph Smith. The Church today continues to manage the day by day affairs of the organization while the very idea of adding new scripture or receiving new and amazing revelations is the furthest thing from the mind. The general attitude is that additional scripture will come during the Millennium and that the Church simply maintains what it already has under ever changing policies and procedures of everyday life. New scripture does not seem to be something in the making for today’s Latter-day Saints.

[Shulem]

Great work and sharing Shulem. I mean, sincerely, it hardly gets better than having the Pratt's explain it like this.

Indeed, and I trust you remember this little gem out of Key to the science of theology wherein elder Pratt likens the teachings of the Book of Abraham *AS* “Scripture”:

The spirits of all men in their primeval states, were intelligent. But among these intelligences some were more noble, that is to say, more intelligent than others.

And God said, these will I make rulers in my kingdoms.* Upon this principle was manifested the election, before the foundation of the world, of certain individuals of certain offices, as written in the Scriptures.

*See book of Abraham, translated from Papyrus. Lately taken from the Catacombs of Thebes in Egypt.

[Shulem]

If the Book of Abraham was considered to be of similar scriptural authority on par with the Book of Mormon it seems as though a thirty year period would not have gone by before canonization and publication in Utah as scripture.

The Book of Abraham was already treated as scripture and was openly taught in the conferences of the Church. The doctrine of preexistence using the Book of Abraham was keenly expressed in a discourse in one such conference early during the Utah expansion. The Minutes of Conference in the DESERET NEWS provides an interesting glimpse in how the saints already viewed the Book of Abraham as scripture although it had not yet been bound in canon form.

We now come to the second division of our subject, or the entrance of these spirits upon their second estate, or their birth and existence in mortal tabernacles. We are told that among this great family of spirits, some were more noble and great than others, having more intelligence.

Where do you read that, says one? Out of the Book of Abraham, translated from the Egyptian Papyrus by the prophet Joseph Smith.

[Shulem]

If the Book of Abraham was considered to be of similar scriptural authority on par with the Book of Mormon

The fact is the Book of Abraham was taught in all phases of Church life to include conferences and publications. Consider CATECHISM FOR CHILDREN: “EXHIBITING THE PROMINENT DOCTRINES OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS” which was published in England in 1854 by apostle Franklin D. Richards and elder John Jaques who later worked as an editor at the Deseret News and became Assistant Church Historian.

CHAPTER III

REVELATIONS OF GOD TO MAN.

1. Q. Has God given many revelations to men?
A. Yes, a great many.

2. Q. Where have we any account of His doing so?
A. In the Bible, also in the Book of Mormon, and in other publications of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Other publications? How about the Pearl of Great Price that was published in England but had not yet been published in Utah or formally canonized? Could that qualify as “other publications” of revelations of God to man?

9. Q. Have Spirits, when in the spirit world, any understanding of the experience through which they must pass before their arrival at perfection?
A. Yes, They have a general idea of it. Pearl of Great Price, page 24.

Passages are then quoted from the Book of Abraham which is *a* publication of the revelation of God to man.