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The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:55 pm
by _Droopy
To understand the inextricable links between the principles and teachings of the gospel and the application of those teachings to both contemporary and perennial questions of politics, we must first have a clear understanding of just what we mean by “politics” and be clear regarding just what aspects of politics are relevant to the gospel. Fundamentally, for our purposes, and for the purposes of gospel study and discussion, politics will be understood as:

1. An attempt to answer the question “how should we live together as a people in a coherent, ordered civil society or social framework?” From a very broad based perspective then, politics attempts to negotiate the task of formulating and applying the first principles upon which a viable, ordered civil society shall be based.

Here we have the philosophical assumptions underlying and comprising the fundamental principles of modern theories of social and economic structures as disparate as a constitutional republic, parliamentary democracy, democratic socialism, revolutionary (communism) or transformational socialism fascism, or other forms of government and can range from matters of doctrinal emphasis and de-emphasis (as between internationalist class focused (Marxian) socialism, National Socialism, and Fascism) to deep, unbridgeable conflicts of core principles (as between the above and classical liberalism).

Politics asks us to think about and then be willing to live under and impose upon others, the societal structure (laws, social and political assumptions and rules of conduct in the public, private, social, and economic spheres) understood to be the governing template upon which a society will develop its particular character, flavor and unique characteristics.

2. A mirror-like reflection, or projection, into the world outside the self comprising other human beings, of that which lies within the soul, both in a philosophical and moral sense. Our politics, at its most fundamental level, exposes at the ballot box, in that which we support or oppose — especially regarding the principles that form the crux of the social and economic issues that will largely determine what kind of society we and our posterity will ultimately live within, — much of our own character and that which defines us as human beings. This is true both as to our society’s moral and material (economic) character, and in that which we are willing to impose upon both ourselves and others as a matter of a social contract governing the meaning and nature of a civilization, as we desire and understand it.

Most especially, and in a more modern context, what we are willing to impose upon others, and expose others to, while at the same time shielding or immunizing ourselves from through the force of law, is of utmost importance.

Our politics tells us as well as all others with whom we share a common society and country what we believe, at a deep level, about the nature and purpose of the human condition. It exposes, many times in indirect ways, our core assumptions and beliefs about what it is to be human and exist in social/political relations with others, including our central underlying conceptions of human nature, agency, freedom, the proper size, scope and purpose of the state, the purpose, meaning and limits of law, and the meaning of the good, the virtuous and of justice.

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:39 am
by _Gadianton
2. A mirror-like reflection, or projection, into the world outside the self


for you yes, because politics is your favorite hobby. But generally, no, I don't think you can tell that much about the average person by their political affiliation, let alone there being a mirror-like reflection inscribed in reality by a person's political views. You might be able to tell something about a person by their favorite hobby, but that hobby probably isn't politics. Like yours.

And again, the scriptures are nowhere near detailed enough to settle the matter on which out of all the various ways to carve up society is the right way. ETB's endorsement of Skousen is the closest I'm aware of, you reject that -- nearly to your credit -- and so good luck getting anyone to agree on the answer you come up with. Just not enough information.

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:52 am
by _Droopy
for you yes, because politics is your favorite hobby.


Political philosophy/political science is not my "hobby," but one of the major foci of study throughout my adult life.

But generally, no, I don't think you can tell that much about the average person by their political affiliation, let alone there being a mirror-like reflection inscribed in reality by a person's political views.


1. You will notice I've said nothing about political affiliation anywhere. The crux of this is the intersection of the gospel and politics, which, if you've bothered reading anything on my blog, or here, you would no is both far broader and deeper than party affiliation.

2. You are claiming then, that one's politics is not a reflection of fundamental values, ideals, and understandings of the world expressed as support or opposition to prescriptive legislative acts? Our politics then, is not an external, expressed representation of core personological, psychological, and ethical elements of character?

The difference between someone who supports convenience abortion on demand from the moment of conception through the end of the third trimester, then, in contrast to someone who supports abortion only to save the life of the mother, and in the case of rape or incest, is morally, philosophically, and ethical trivial, and implies nothing, in a broader, ethical sense, about each of these individuals?

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:00 am
by _Gadianton
1. You will notice I've said nothing about political affiliation anywhere. The crux of this is the intersection of the gospel and politics, which, if you've bothered reading anything on my blog, or here, you would no is both far broader and deeper than party affiliation.


so you disagree with BCSpace?

2. You are claiming then, that one's politics is not a reflection of fundamental values, ideals, and understandings of the world expressed as support or opposition to prescriptive legislative acts? Our politics then, is not an external, expressed representation of core personological, psychological, and ethical elements of character?


You are changing the claim. You said a "mirror-like" reflection initially, which seems to mean, it bears all (especially if you're stealing from Rorty's "Mirror of Nature" analogy, which I think you are). Sure, one's politics, like one's diet or porn preferences, could be some kind of a reflection, perhaps a very murky one, of one's "soul". For you, given politics is your major "Loci" of life hobby-horsing, we can learn more about the inner you by your political posts than most people.

Can I not say one's TV-watching preferences reflects to some degree, one's values and ideals?

You said:

Our politics, at its most fundamental level, exposes at the ballot box, in that which we support or oppose


This is obviously false. For instance, there are things I support and oppose but I don't vote. And many people vote for things that their inner-most self doesn't necessarily support or oppose. For instance, a friend of mine tells me he and his wife vote democrat on everything. Why? well, his wife could go either way on most issues, he sees himself conservative on most issues, but his wife is a social worker. They vote Democrat all around because they see Democrats as more likely not to cut government social work jobs. In fact, the Romney 47% idea hinges on people voting out of utility rather than their inner-most values. You could argue that voting out of utility reflects a man's inner political corruption, but, we could imagine a gun to the head at the booth and that's just a little farther down the same road. Our politics may but do not necessarily, and often don't, expose at the ballot box what we support in our souls, and almost never with mirror-precision accuracy.

The difference between someone who supports convenience abortion on demand from the moment of conception through the end of the third trimester, then, in contrast to someone who supports abortion only to save the life of the mother, and in the case of rape or incest, is morally, philosophically, and ethical trivial, and implies nothing, in a broader, ethical sense, about each of these individuals?


You mean, is the difference between someone whose normative ethics is grounded in the rights of the mother and someone whose normative ethics is grounded in the rights of the child philosphically and ethically trivial, implying nothing, in a broader, ethical sense, about the normative ethics of these individuals?

Your circular reasoning aside, I thought we were discussion politics? A person can't anticipate how the "ballot box" will frame an issue, and it's possible that two people with contrasting ethics will vote for the same law because the law doesn't capture the differences. For instance, if a proposition were to outlaw all abortion, these two individuals might vote "no". Of course, knowing your propensity for circularity, I'm anticipating that you'll find a way to place an identity relationship between a person's politics and soul, and consider the matter settled.

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:37 am
by _moksha
Image

The Gospel was heading eastbound at 25mph and
Politics entered the intersection southbound at
30mph. At what point does Droopy find satisfaction?

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:32 pm
by _moksha
Image
Politics proposed handling matters under the table
and religion agreed and handed over the deed to its
soul in lieu of repair costs.

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:20 pm
by _Droopy
moksha wrote:Image

The Gospel was heading eastbound at 25mph and
Politics entered the intersection southbound at
30mph. At what point does Droopy find satisfaction?



If politics hadn't crossed the center line doing 90mph and hit religion head-on, there wouldn't have been a problem. Unfortunately, politics decided that it owned the road.

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:04 pm
by _Bazooka
Droopy, what are the politics relevant to the principle of the Church teaching a literal, global flood happening circa 4,500 years ago?

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:23 pm
by _Droopy
Bazooka wrote:Droopy, what are the politics relevant to the principle of the Church teaching a literal, global flood happening circa 4,500 years ago?



Bazooka, do you like movies about gladiators?

Re: The Intersection of the Gospel and Politics Part III

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:19 pm
by _subgenius
Bazooka wrote:Droopy, what are the politics relevant to the principle of the Church teaching a literal, global flood happening circa 4,500 years ago?

global warmin....er...climate change

http://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/climate-change