DiscussMormonism.com

I have been studying the history and doctrines of the LDS Church for about 25 years now and I am quite addicted to it.

In recent years my interest is limited to the events that took place during the life of Joseph Smith and any related events having to do with the succession crisis that followed. Beyond that, I only have a passing interest.

More specifically I am drawn to the really bizarre, strange, scary, obscure and seeming unexplainable events in LDS history.

This is because they are often times the most interesting, entertaining, instructional and most enlightening, if they are pursued and investigated.

They often lead one down a rabbit hole, but if one is willing to go down the rabbit hole far enough, I have found that amazing things will be revealed.

The rabbit hole usually takes me into the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon and the modern revelations for a better prophetic, contextual understanding of the historical event.

I have found that the most disturbing and controversial events of LDS church history actually become the most faith promoting if I am willing to throw all caution to the wind and relentlessly investigate them rather than sweeping them under the carpet or putting them on the infamous "shelf" that well meaning people in high places love to recommend.

I refer cumulatively to these types of historical events as the secret history of the LDS Church because 98% of the members of the church are unfamiliar with these historical events.

There a numerous reasons why members of the church are unfamiliar with many of these secret events but that is a topic for another time.

The fun thing about a forum like this one is that most of the people that visit this forum are atypical and well read.

Most of the people on this forum, regardless of whether they are believers or skeptics, have an above average knowledge of the history of the church and are familiar with most of the obscure and secret historical events that I have enjoyed studying.

However, I am willing to bet that many of the believers and skeptics even in this forum have not spent much time doing research and chasing clues down rabbit holes to understand many of the obscure and secret historical things took place.

I certainly may be wrong and hope that I am.

I am a highly curious person and perhaps that is why I am drawn to the secret history of the church.

I have an inquiring mind.

I consider myself to be a mystic of sorts and I believe that biblical Christianity and the restored gospel represent a mystical religion.

I have found that virtually every disconcerting thing I am aware of that took place during the LDS restoration movement during the life of Joseph Smith has been explained to my satisfaction once I could see it in the full context of the historical setting and in light of biblical prophecy, etc., but only if I was willing to go deep enough down the rabbit hole and not fear what it might lead me to.

I am convinced that the most perplexing and faith challenging historical events in church history actually end up being the most faith promoting events if one has the intestinal fortitude to confront them and do the necessary investigative work to understand them.

My frustration is that my religious journey has largely been an extremely lonely one because I have found very few fellow mystics that seem to be very interested in pursuing these obscure secret issues and trying to understand them.

I find that most mainstream members of the church are either not interested or too scared to get deep into the controversial historical topics for fear of loosing their "testimonies".

On the other hand ex-Mormons and disaffected Mormons obviously have no interest in pursuing these types of issues because they have written Joseph Smith and the restoration movement off as fraudulent. ( And that is really unfortunate because many of the ex-Mormons are very well read in church history and could really add an important dimension to any adventure that requires investigative research )

Hence, I am left as a lone man in the garden, so to speak. (Except for a very small group of mystics who have joined me in this journey) .

I plan on listing about 20 or 30 of the most interesting historical tidbits that I have come across over the years (and why I find them significant) in this thread for anyone who is interested in following along and/or joining in. (If there seems to be any interest in this topic)

I plan on listing a different event from time to time after the previous one has been fully developed to the extent that I feel comfortable sharing my findings.

In some cases I will only provide interpretive keys to some of the things I have found for reasons that will be come obvious as this thread progresses.

I am hoping to find a few kindred spirits that enjoy solving mysteries and delving deep into the chase with a believing mind-set.

I am not opposed to non-believers providing the reasons they don't buy into my findings and I am happy to converse with people that are sincerely looking and wanting someone to speak with, but I am not really interested in arguing with anyone for the sake of arguing. I am very much at peace with people who choose to not believe and am not out to try to convert those that have made up their minds.

I have debated with people for years and in the right situation I enjoy a good debate, however, this thread is not the right situation for me.

Nevertheless I totally understand the anger many people feel towards the church and if mocking this topic is therapeutic for someone I can appreciate and relate to that.

If there is generally not any interest in a specific event I will drop it and move on to another one. If the entire topic fails to generate any interest I will let it drop and discontinue adding interesting events.

I am new to the Mormon Discussions chat board and have no idea what kind of response to expect.

If I find that this is not fertile ground for this type of discussion, no harm, no foul, I will simply depart as unceremoniously as I arrived with no hard feelings.

I invite anyone who has an interest in this topic to share the historical events that they find intriguing.

If you have found enlightenment as a result of chasing the related clues of a strange historical event down a rabbit hole, please do share.

I am excited to compare notes and learn from others that may be on a similar journey.

I am interested in hearing from anyone that sincerely wants to add to the discussion with credible documentation.

I don't care what a person's background is. I especially don't care how much education someone has. I can learn from anyone that has something of value to offer.

If you are intrigued with a strange happening in LDS church history, but have not been able to find resolve in your quest for understanding and enlightenment, feel free to share the event and why you are intrigued with it anyway. Who knows, may I or someone else have found something that will be of interest to you.

I will start off with my first historical event and why I find it interesting when I return...

by the way

When I speak of controversial historical events as being faith promoting, I am referring to the restored "gospel", not any current corporations.

Also, I am leaving to go out of town for a few days tomorrow AM so if I don't respond to anyone or continue adding historical events for a while, that is why..

I am going to start this topic off with one of my favorite mind blowing historical events.

It has to do with a secret that Joseph and Oliver shared with each other.

It appears that the secret they shared between the two of them (and Oliver's brother to some extent) is one that they took to their graves, except for a dairy entry that they wanted to be found sometime in the future.

On April 3 1836, a group of saints were having a meeting on the main floor of the Kirtland Temple.

While this meeting was going on, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery quietly walked right past them and went to the west end of the room by the pulpits.
They pulled the veil closed so that they could seek a communication from ministering angels.

We learn from modern revelation that the purpose of the "holy place" is for the "Sons of Levi" to receive "conversations":
" by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations" (124:39)

Several years earlier, Joseph and Oliver had received the priesthood from John the Baptist which held the "keys of the ministering of angels":
"UPON you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness." (section 13)

The visitation from angels and visions that took place at this time is well documented in summary form, in section 110 of the D&C, however, what most members of the church don't know, is that once Joseph and Oliver got done with the conversation they had with angels, they quietly got up and walked past the congregation without revealing what had taken place.

No announcement.

No fanfare.

Interestingly, Fawn Brodie states that Joseph and Oliver made an announcement to those that were meeting on the other side of the veil, but she leaves out any documentation because there is none to be had.

She obviously just assumed that these two would have have made such an announcement. I think most of us would make such an assumption because it is mind boggling to think that they wouldn't have shared their announcement.

Following that experience, Joseph and Oliver dictated to one of Joseph's scribes, (Oliver's brother Warren) what took place so that he could write it in a Journal.

After that, there is no documentation that I am aware of to indicate that Joseph and or Oliver ever publicly revealed the details of that experience.

The account of that experience was apparently discovered in the journal years later when Brigham Young and his brethren obtained the journal and went to Utah. The account was eventually published in a newspaper in the 1850's and finally canonized by Brigham Young 40 years after it took place. (the length of a biblical generation)

One can only imagine how shocked Brig and the boys must have been when they stumbled upon the account of the vision.

The saints living during the Kirtland and Nauvoo eras never knew anything about the events that are currently documented in section 110 during those years.
I find that astounding.

Furthermore, precious few LDS scholars have found this extremely strange historical event to be worthy of writing a paper about, ( although I am aware of a BYU Master's Thesis that someone did on how section 110 became canonized)

Frankly, I am shocked that LDS scholars aren't greatly preoccupied with the quest of getting to the bottom of this.

It appears to me that Joseph and Oliver were obviously commanded by God to not reveal this event to the saints of that era but rather to document it in a journal so that the saints would become aware of it at a later time.

Interestingly, there is an interesting parallel to this event.

In the New Testament, Jesus had a similar communication on the Mt of Transfiguration which also involved Moses and Elijah.

Following that communication he told Peter James and John to not tell anyone about it for a while: ".. he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead..." (Mark 9:9)

It is amazing to me that Joseph and Oliver never publicly mentioned this event during the remainder of their lives.

Joseph Smith even gave a discourse in Nauvoo several years later on the topic of Elias Elijah and Messiah and during the discourse he never even mentioned the event that took place in Kirtland as documented in section 110.

The whole context of his remarks was geared towards the future, not anything that had happened in the past.

Shortly following the event that took place in section 110, which should have sealed Joseph and Oliver together in an unbreakable bond, Oliver accuses Joseph of a moral impropriety. From there, their relationship continues to go down hill and Oliver becomes more un-trusting and accusative of Joseph. He eventually leaves the church.

This is a bit awkward and illogical for several reasons. Oliver had been the co-president and second elder of the church from its inception.

He was one of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon

He had been the one to receive the first two priesthoods from angels with Joseph.

He had received revelations for the church.

All of those facts along with the fact that Oliver continued to believe in all of the events he participated in, make Oliver's falling out with Joseph and decision to leave the church pretty radical, disruptive, and curious but there is another issue that makes his behavior even more illogical.

According to section 110, the keys of the gathering of Israel as well as the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham were not given to Joseph exclusively. They were given to Joseph and Oliver Jointly.

I believe that is very significant.

It appears to me that the work could not move forward without Oliver's involvement.

I think Joseph and Oliver both knew this.

God has, all time, past present and future, continually before his eyes. I don't think God would have jointly given these keys to Oliver knowing that Oliver was going to fall by the wayside and leave the work, under the circumstances that took place.

Despite the fact that the Lord replaces Oliver with Hyrum Smith in section 124, in 1841, in April of 1843, Joseph directed that a letter be written to Oliver in Missouri.

He instructed that in the letter it ask if Oliver had “eaten husks long enough.”

This was and unmistakable reference to the parable of the Prodigal Son.

In the parable, the wayward son, who, after squandering all his inheritance, was sent to the fields to feed the swine where “he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat” (Luke 15:16).

Oliver was being reminded that he had squandered all that had previously been given him— the visions, the priesthoods, his membership, his Church office, the keys he had jointly been given with Joseph, etc.

Interestingly, Joseph directed that the letter ask Oliver if he was “almost” ready to return and be clothed with the “robes of righteousness.” (HC 5:368).

The invitation to receive the robes of righteousness, typologically was acknowledging that all would be forgiven and Oliver would be reinstated to his previous priesthood position and all that he had previously had.

One might think that such a letter was overly liberal considering how some apostates have been treated.

Some might feel it was presumptuous, but the fact of the matter is that Joseph and Oliver both knew something that the general church membership didn't know.

They shared a little secret.

Their experience behind the veil had revealed something far more significant that what is communicated in the brief summary that is contained in section 110.

I believe it is because of what was revealed in the experience behind the veil that motivated Oliver to watch for Joseph to transgress.

Oliver had his eyes opened to something. He was given a prophetic view of something to look for and beware of.

It is because of this little secret that Oliver was able to be critical when he might otherwise have blindly gone along with the absurd string of events that were about to take place in the church.

Because of their secret, they both knew that it was only a matter of time before the two of them reunited in the work they had been given.

They had shared in a secret conversation with angels.

Clearly, more was said in that conversation with angels than what is documented in section 110.

And that is the great mystery.

What else took place?

What else was revealed?

Why did God command Joseph and Oliver to not make their visions and visits with angels behind the veil public?

Why did the Lord want this event kept secret at that time?

Why did the Lord want it recorded so that future generations would know about it.

Why did Oliver feel so free to be critical of the Lords anointed and to eventually leave the church so shortly after having an amazing experience?

Has anyone else been down this rabbit hole?

I'll be back to address some of my findings...

If you think you know the answer..

Feel free to steal my thunder..

c wrote:I am going to start this topic off with one of my favorite mind blowing historical events.

It has to do with a secret that Joseph and Oliver shared with each other.

It appears that the secret they shared between the two of them (and Oliver's brother to some extent) is one that they took to their graves, except for a dairy entry that they wanted to be found sometime in the future.

On April 3 1836, a group of saints were having a meeting on the main floor of the Kirtland Temple.

While this meeting was going on, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery quietly walked right past them and went to the west end of the room by the pulpits.
They pulled the veil closed so that they could seek a communication from ministering angels.

We learn from modern revelation that the purpose of the "holy place" is for the "Sons of Levi" to receive "conversations":
" by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations" (124:39)

Several years earlier, Joseph and Oliver had received the priesthood from John the Baptist which held the "keys of the ministering of angels":
"UPON you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness." (section 13)

The visitation from angels and visions that took place at this time is well documented in summary form, in section 110 of the D&C, however, what most members of the church don't know, is that once Joseph and Oliver got done with the conversation they had with angels, they quietly got up and walked past the congregation without revealing what had taken place.

No announcement.

No fanfare.

Interestingly, Fawn Brodie states that Joseph and Oliver made an announcement to those that were meeting on the other side of the veil, but she leaves out any documentation because there is none to be had.

She obviously just assumed that these two would have have made such an announcement. I think most of us would make such an assumption because it is mind boggling to think that they wouldn't have shared their announcement.

Following that experience, Joseph and Oliver dictated to one of Joseph's scribes, (Oliver's brother Warren) what took place so that he could write it in a Journal.

After that, there is no documentation that I am aware of to indicate that Joseph and or Oliver ever publicly revealed the details of that experience.

The account of that experience was apparently discovered in the journal years later when Brigham Young and his brethren obtained the journal and went to Utah. The account was eventually published in a newspaper in the 1850's and finally canonized by Brigham Young 40 years after it took place. (the length of a biblical generation)

One can only imagine how shocked Brig and the boys must have been when they stumbled upon the account of the vision.

The saints living during the Kirtland and Nauvoo eras never knew anything about the events that are currently documented in section 110 during those years.
I find that astounding.

Furthermore, precious few LDS scholars have found this extremely strange historical event to be worthy of writing a paper about, ( although I am aware of a BYU Master's Thesis that someone did on how section 110 became canonized)

Frankly, I am shocked that LDS scholars aren't greatly preoccupied with the quest of getting to the bottom of this.

It appears to me that Joseph and Oliver were obviously commanded by God to not reveal this event to the saints of that era but rather to document it in a journal so that the saints would become aware of it at a later time.

Interestingly, there is an interesting parallel to this event.

In the New Testament, Jesus had a similar communication on the Mt of Transfiguration which also involved Moses and Elijah.

Following that communication he told Peter James and John to not tell anyone about it for a while: ".. he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead..." (Mark 9:9)

It is amazing to me that Joseph and Oliver never publicly mentioned this event during the remainder of their lives.

Joseph Smith even gave a discourse in Nauvoo several years later on the topic of Elias Elijah and Messiah and during the discourse he never even mentioned the event that took place in Kirtland as documented in section 110.

The whole context of his remarks was geared towards the future, not anything that had happened in the past.

Shortly following the event that took place in section 110, which should have sealed Joseph and Oliver together in an unbreakable bond, Oliver accuses Joseph of a moral impropriety. From there, their relationship continues to go down hill and Oliver becomes more un-trusting and accusative of Joseph. He eventually leaves the church.

This is a bit awkward and illogical for several reasons. Oliver had been the co-president and second elder of the church from its inception.

He was one of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon

He had been the one to receive the first two priesthoods from angels with Joseph.

He had received revelations for the church.

All of those facts along with the fact that Oliver continued to believe in all of the events he participated in, make Oliver's falling out with Joseph and decision to leave the church pretty radical, disruptive, and curious but there is another issue that makes his behavior even more illogical.

According to section 110, the keys of the gathering of Israel as well as the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham were not given to Joseph exclusively. They were given to Joseph and Oliver Jointly.

I believe that is very significant.

It appears to me that the work could not move forward without Oliver's involvement.

I think Joseph and Oliver both knew this.

God has, all time, past present and future, continually before his eyes. I don't think God would have jointly given these keys to Oliver knowing that Oliver was going to fall by the wayside and leave the work, under the circumstances that took place.

Despite the fact that the Lord replaces Oliver with Hyrum Smith in section 124, in 1841, in April of 1843, Joseph directed that a letter be written to Oliver in Missouri.

He instructed that in the letter it ask if Oliver had “eaten husks long enough.”

This was and unmistakable reference to the parable of the Prodigal Son.

In the parable, the wayward son, who, after squandering all his inheritance, was sent to the fields to feed the swine where “he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat” (Luke 15:16).

Oliver was being reminded that he had squandered all that had previously been given him— the visions, the priesthoods, his membership, his Church office, the keys he had jointly been given with Joseph, etc.

Interestingly, Joseph directed that the letter ask Oliver if he was “almost” ready to return and be clothed with the “robes of righteousness.” (HC 5:368).

The invitation to receive the robes of righteousness, typologically was acknowledging that all would be forgiven and Oliver would be reinstated to his previous priesthood position and all that he had previously had.

One might think that such a letter was overly liberal considering how some apostates have been treated.

Some might feel it was presumptuous, but the fact of the matter is that Joseph and Oliver both knew something that the general church membership didn't know.

They shared a little secret.

Their experience behind the veil had revealed something far more significant that what is communicated in the brief summary that is contained in section 110.

I believe it is because of what was revealed in the experience behind the veil that motivated Oliver to watch for Joseph to transgress.

Oliver had his eyes opened to something. He was given a prophetic view of something to look for and beware of.

It is because of this little secret that Oliver was able to be critical when he might otherwise have blindly gone along with the absurd string of events that were about to take place in the church.

Because of their secret, they both knew that it was only a matter of time before the two of them reunited in the work they had been given.

They had shared in a secret conversation with angels.

Clearly, more was said in that conversation with angels than what is documented in section 110.

And that is the great mystery.

What else took place?

What else was revealed?

Why did God command Joseph and Oliver to not make their visions and visits with angels behind the veil public?

Why did the Lord want this event kept secret at that time?

Why did the Lord want it recorded so that future generations would know about it.

Why did Oliver feel so free to be critical of the Lords anointed and to eventually leave the church so shortly after having an amazing experience?

Has anyone else been down this rabbit hole?

I'll be back to address some of my findings...

If you think you know the answer..

Feel free to steal my thunder..

Hi Watcher, welcome to the board.

Unless I'm missing something in your story, Joseph and Oliver went behind a veil and had an experience that no one has an explanation for. If the knowledge of that event died with them, it will always be speculation.

Maybe it was an amazing revelation or maybe Joseph had recently heard a funny, off color joke and wanted to tell Oliver beyond earshot of the congregation.

Any explanation would work without further information. You are quite right in assuming that board members here are well read and above par (except me). You will have to be on your toes.

I'm looking forward to more information about this. Documentation always helps.

Hello watcher,

>>>In recent years my interest is limited to the events that took place during the life of Joseph Smith and any related events having to do with the succession crisis that followed. Beyond that, I only have a passing interest.<<<

I've just recently started having an idle curiosity in how Brigham Young seceeded Joseph Smith. Apparently some people claimed that BY looked like Joseph Smith during a meeting. Can you answer any oif the following:
1. How many people made this claim?
2. If not for the experience who would have taken over?
3. Did Joseph Smith give any indication either personally or through supposed revelation that BY should take over?
4. Any other tidbits.

Personally I am an ex LDS and an inactive member of the temple lot group. I am also a student of the Edgar Cayce readings.

sleepyhead wrote:Hello watcher,

>>>In recent years my interest is limited to the events that took place during the life of Joseph Smith and any related events having to do with the succession crisis that followed. Beyond that, I only have a passing interest.<<<

I've just recently started having an idle curiosity in how Brigham Young seceeded Joseph Smith. Apparently some people claimed that BY looked like Joseph Smith during a meeting. Can you answer any oif the following:
1. How many people made this claim?
2. If not for the experience who would have taken over?
3. Did Joseph Smith give any indication either personally or through supposed revelation that BY should take over?
4. Any other tidbits.

Personally I am an ex LDS and an inactive member of the temple lot group. I am also a student of the Edgar Cayce readings.

I am interested in watchers response to these questions.
If I recall correctly there is only one individual who is claiming the transfiguration of BY into Joseph Smith although he does write it in such a way as to give them impression the whole room felt that way.

If I recall correctly Joseph Smith indicated his son was to take over leadership of the Church.

sleepyhead wrote:Hello watcher,

>>>In recent years my interest is limited to the events that took place during the life of Joseph Smith and any related events having to do with the succession crisis that followed. Beyond that, I only have a passing interest.<<<

I've just recently started having an idle curiosity in how Brigham Young seceeded Joseph Smith. Apparently some people claimed that BY looked like Joseph Smith during a meeting. Can you answer any oif the following:
1. How many people made this claim?
2. If not for the experience who would have taken over?
3. Did Joseph Smith give any indication either personally or through supposed revelation that BY should take over?
4. Any other tidbits.

Personally I am an ex LDS and an inactive member of the temple lot group. I am also a student of the Edgar Cayce readings.

1b. When did they make the claim - immediately after the meeting, or years later?
1c. Can it be established that the people who made the claim were actually there at the meeting?

Quasimodo

I truly feel humbled and honored that someone who has achieved God status would condescend to welcome someone who has nursery status.

My suppositions will always be packed with lots of documentation, but that will not mean they are not subjective, speculative opinions of a religious heretic.

I also appreciate the reminder that people who frequent this board are of superior breeding and intellect.

I will try to watch my P's and Q's

Thank you

Watcher

sleepyhead

Before I respond to the transformation of Brigham Young topic, let me briefly mention two misconceptions about the succession issue that may shed some light on the topic.

1st- Many people begin their succession research based on the false premise that they need to determine who should have succeeded Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Church after the martyrdom.

That is the wrong question to ask because Joseph Smith was not the prophet of the church when he died.

From my research, I believe Hyrum was the sole prophet of the Church at the time of the martyrdom.

In January of 1841, Hyrum Smith was made the co-president and prophet of the church with Joseph.

One July 16, 1843 Joseph stated in a discourse at a church conference that he was not going to prophesy anymore for the church.

He stated something to the effect that the saints needed to acknowledge and sustain Hyrum in that position. Here is a portion of his remarks

"I will not prophesy anymore. Hyrum holds the office of Prophet to the Church by birthright and... the saints must regard Hyrum for he has authority. Hyrum should be the prophet."

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1843/16Jul43.html

This amazing event fulfilled an amazing prophecy succession prophecy in section 43. (more on that later)

Following that shocking announcement, Joseph got some industrial strength blow back from some of the elders of the church. Some of them did not feel Hyrum could be the sole prophet of the church.

Joseph tried to pacify them.

According to one account, Joseph tried to backpedal, but there are additional accounts that substantiate that Joseph kept pointing the saints to Hyrum as the leader.
The profound significance of what had taken place leads to the second misconception.

2nd- Many people think that the Lord had not given a definitive succession protocol. One prominent LDS historian made that declaration but that is not true.
Nothing could be further from the truth.

Section 43 provides not only a succession protocol, it also contains a succession prophecy. (section 90 also provides some very important information on succession)

Once the succession prophecy is understood, the replacing of Joseph with Hyrum explains a lot about what happened following the endowment that took place in the Kirtland Temple on April 3 1836.

It also provides one of the keys to understanding the mysterious event having to do with section 110 and Oliver's secret.

Since I just checked in to a hotel and my dear wife is waiting for me in a hot tub, I am simply going to provide the links to a series I did a year or two ago on the succession issue. All of the documentation for what I am saying is contained therein.

Regarding the transformation of Brigham Young, I am familiar with both arguments and I lean towards the side that thinks that very few people actually saw the transformation at the time of Brigham's address. The myth grew after the church got to Utah.

My wife who is significantly smarter than me disagrees with me. She things that lots of people saw the transformation in fulfillment of New Testament prophesies foretelling that God would send a strong delusion.

Regardless of which side of the argument is correct, I believe it is totally irrelevant whether people saw a transformation or not.

There is no scriptural documentation in the standard works to suggest that a visual transformation to look like someone else represents a valid way for succession to take place.

There are, however, scriptural warnings about being deceived by visual transformations.

Those who believe that Brigham Youngs ascent to the head of the church is justified because Brigham Young was transformed to look like Joseph are on very shaky ground from a doctrinal point of view.

Having said all of that, the scriptures do seem to allow the church to choose a "president" by the law of common consent rather than accepting the Lords designated prophet seer and revelator. That, in my opinon, is the strength of Brigham's calling.


Here are the links to the series on the succession issue

http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2 ... -part-one/
http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2 ... art-two-2/
http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2 ... art-three/
http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2 ... part-fout/
http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2 ... part-five/
http://onewhoiswatching.wordpress.com/2 ... residency/

As with everything I write, I reserve the right to embellish, blame my interpretations on someone else, insert my biases, change my mind without notice, deny ever having written something in the first place, or anything else to protect myself from the embarrassment of having gotten something wrong. LOL

Watcher wrote:I am going to start this topic off with one of my favorite mind blowing historical events.

It has to do with a secret that Joseph and Oliver shared with each other.

It appears that the secret they shared between the two of them (and Oliver's brother to some extent) is one that they took to their graves, except for a dairy entry that they wanted to be found sometime in the future.

On April 3 1836, a group of saints were having a meeting on the main floor of the Kirtland Temple.

While this meeting was going on, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery quietly walked right past them and went to the west end of the room by the pulpits.
They pulled the veil closed so that they could seek a communication from ministering angels.

We learn from modern revelation that the purpose of the "holy place" is for the "Sons of Levi" to receive "conversations":
" by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations" (124:39)

Several years earlier, Joseph and Oliver had received the priesthood from John the Baptist which held the "keys of the ministering of angels":
"UPON you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness." (section 13)

The visitation from angels and visions that took place at this time is well documented in summary form, in section 110 of the D&C, however, what most members of the church don't know, is that once Joseph and Oliver got done with the conversation they had with angels, they quietly got up and walked past the congregation without revealing what had taken place.

No announcement.

No fanfare.

Interestingly, Fawn Brodie states that Joseph and Oliver made an announcement to those that were meeting on the other side of the veil, but she leaves out any documentation because there is none to be had.

She obviously just assumed that these two would have have made such an announcement. I think most of us would make such an assumption because it is mind boggling to think that they wouldn't have shared their announcement.

Following that experience, Joseph and Oliver dictated to one of Joseph's scribes, (Oliver's brother Warren) what took place so that he could write it in a Journal.

After that, there is no documentation that I am aware of to indicate that Joseph and or Oliver ever publicly revealed the details of that experience.

The account of that experience was apparently discovered in the journal years later when Brigham Young and his brethren obtained the journal and went to Utah. The account was eventually published in a newspaper in the 1850's and finally canonized by Brigham Young 40 years after it took place. (the length of a biblical generation)

One can only imagine how shocked Brig and the boys must have been when they stumbled upon the account of the vision.

The saints living during the Kirtland and Nauvoo eras never knew anything about the events that are currently documented in section 110 during those years.
I find that astounding.

Furthermore, precious few LDS scholars have found this extremely strange historical event to be worthy of writing a paper about, ( although I am aware of a BYU Master's Thesis that someone did on how section 110 became canonized)

Frankly, I am shocked that LDS scholars aren't greatly preoccupied with the quest of getting to the bottom of this.

It appears to me that Joseph and Oliver were obviously commanded by God to not reveal this event to the saints of that era but rather to document it in a journal so that the saints would become aware of it at a later time.

Interestingly, there is an interesting parallel to this event.

In the New Testament, Jesus had a similar communication on the Mt of Transfiguration which also involved Moses and Elijah.

Following that communication he told Peter James and John to not tell anyone about it for a while: ".. he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead..." (Mark 9:9)

It is amazing to me that Joseph and Oliver never publicly mentioned this event during the remainder of their lives.

Joseph Smith even gave a discourse in Nauvoo several years later on the topic of Elias Elijah and Messiah and during the discourse he never even mentioned the event that took place in Kirtland as documented in section 110.

The whole context of his remarks was geared towards the future, not anything that had happened in the past.

Shortly following the event that took place in section 110, which should have sealed Joseph and Oliver together in an unbreakable bond, Oliver accuses Joseph of a moral impropriety. From there, their relationship continues to go down hill and Oliver becomes more un-trusting and accusative of Joseph. He eventually leaves the church.

This is a bit awkward and illogical for several reasons. Oliver had been the co-president and second elder of the church from its inception.

He was one of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon

He had been the one to receive the first two priesthoods from angels with Joseph.

He had received revelations for the church.

All of those facts along with the fact that Oliver continued to believe in all of the events he participated in, make Oliver's falling out with Joseph and decision to leave the church pretty radical, disruptive, and curious but there is another issue that makes his behavior even more illogical.

According to section 110, the keys of the gathering of Israel as well as the dispensation of the Gospel of Abraham were not given to Joseph exclusively. They were given to Joseph and Oliver Jointly.

I believe that is very significant.

It appears to me that the work could not move forward without Oliver's involvement.

I think Joseph and Oliver both knew this.

God has, all time, past present and future, continually before his eyes. I don't think God would have jointly given these keys to Oliver knowing that Oliver was going to fall by the wayside and leave the work, under the circumstances that took place.

Despite the fact that the Lord replaces Oliver with Hyrum Smith in section 124, in 1841, in April of 1843, Joseph directed that a letter be written to Oliver in Missouri.

He instructed that in the letter it ask if Oliver had “eaten husks long enough.”

This was and unmistakable reference to the parable of the Prodigal Son.

In the parable, the wayward son, who, after squandering all his inheritance, was sent to the fields to feed the swine where “he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat” (Luke 15:16).

Oliver was being reminded that he had squandered all that had previously been given him— the visions, the priesthoods, his membership, his Church office, the keys he had jointly been given with Joseph, etc.

Interestingly, Joseph directed that the letter ask Oliver if he was “almost” ready to return and be clothed with the “robes of righteousness.” (HC 5:368).

The invitation to receive the robes of righteousness, typologically was acknowledging that all would be forgiven and Oliver would be reinstated to his previous priesthood position and all that he had previously had.

One might think that such a letter was overly liberal considering how some apostates have been treated.

Some might feel it was presumptuous, but the fact of the matter is that Joseph and Oliver both knew something that the general church membership didn't know.

They shared a little secret.

Their experience behind the veil had revealed something far more significant that what is communicated in the brief summary that is contained in section 110.

I believe it is because of what was revealed in the experience behind the veil that motivated Oliver to watch for Joseph to transgress.

Oliver had his eyes opened to something. He was given a prophetic view of something to look for and beware of.

It is because of this little secret that Oliver was able to be critical when he might otherwise have blindly gone along with the absurd string of events that were about to take place in the church.

Because of their secret, they both knew that it was only a matter of time before the two of them reunited in the work they had been given.

They had shared in a secret conversation with angels.

Clearly, more was said in that conversation with angels than what is documented in section 110.

And that is the great mystery.

What else took place?

What else was revealed?

Why did God command Joseph and Oliver to not make their visions and visits with angels behind the veil public?

Why did the Lord want this event kept secret at that time?

Why did the Lord want it recorded so that future generations would know about it.

Why did Oliver feel so free to be critical of the Lords anointed and to eventually leave the church so shortly after having an amazing experience?

Has anyone else been down this rabbit hole?

I'll be back to address some of my findings...

If you think you know the answer..

Feel free to steal my thunder..

I accept your challenge to climb into the rabbit hole to address what was revealed to Joseph and Oliver in the context of section 110. You asked what else took place, what else was revealed, why God commanded them to keep the visions secret, but still recorded so that future generations would know about it, why Oliver felt so free to be critical of Joseph and to leave the Church after the visions, and why the Lord wanted these visions to be recorded for future generations.

I propose that the secret Joseph and Oliver shared with each other related to Joseph’s polygamous marriages and sealings. Oliver accused Joseph of a moral impropriety involving a matter I will describe in detail below.

They jointly received the keys involving something that the general church membership didn't know, as you wrote. They shared a little secret, as you say. Their experience behind the veil had revealed something far more significant that what is communicated in the brief summary that is contained in section 110, as you report.

You wrote, “I believe it is because of what was revealed in the experience behind the veil that motivated Oliver to watch for Joseph to transgress.” I believe this had reference to the sealing power that Joseph would use to establish his right to have multiple wives, and Oliver was not prepared for that.

Oliver had his eyes opened to plural marriage, and given a prophetic view of something to look for and beware of; namely, the binding and sealing powers of eternal marriages. Yet, Oliver still wasn’t prepared to watch his fellow servant enter into relationships he still believed were improper. Thus, “Oliver was able to be critical when he might otherwise have blindly gone along with the absurd string of events that were about to take place in the church.”

Because of their secret, they both knew that it was only a matter of time before the two of them reunited in the work they had been given.

They had shared in a secret conversation with angels concerning the plurality of wives.

I don’t seek to steal your thunder. I just looked at your offer to climb in the rabbit hole with you as an offer to think critically about what may have taken place, or what allegedly took place. (I’m not a believer, but for the sake of argument I accept the revelation as Joseph and Oliver believed it had happened.
Now, for the rest of the story, as I perceive it:

An incident occurred in 1835, with nineteen year old Fanny Ward Alger. Allegedly, Emma saw Joseph and Fanny Alger in the barn together alone. Oliver learned of this incident from Joseph Smith, who had allegedly confided to him that “he had confessed to Emma,” seeking her forgiveness. Cowdery openly talked about the Alger affair. In November 1837, he “insinuate[d] that Joseph Smith Jr. was guilty of adultery.” In a letter to his brother Warren, he referred to Smith’s deed as “a dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Algers.” On 12 April 1838, Oliver was excommunicated, with nine charges listed, the second being for “seeking to destroy the character of President Joseph Smith jr by falsely insinuating that he was guilty of adultery.”

I believe this is the matter that the Church was not prepared to receive; nor was Oliver entirely ready to receive it at the time.

In any event, Joseph Smith claimed the power to “bind on earth and seal in the heavens” eternally, when Elijah appeared to himself and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland temple on 3 April 1836.

Watcher, welcome to the forum. The issues and questions you raise are very well said. I for one would like to hear more of the secret history (Apologist retort: It's sacred history not secret) as well as the mysticism you have found helpful.

I truly feel humbled and honored that someone who has achieved God status would condescend to welcome someone who has nursery status.

Don't worry, even though Quasimodo and I enjoy tossing lightning bolts around sometimes, we are still human at heart.


by the way, are you well versed in the works of Denver Snuffer?