The Trinity Explained

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_Maksutov
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Maksutov »

huckelberry wrote:Muksutov. "dribble" was meant as light hearted response to"bibble" I was actually uncertain as to your line of thought about Constantine.Though you are able to make interesting and valuable observations, I was not interested in questioning your lack of respect for Christianity or religion

I am a little puzzled as to why you appear to think I am unaware or uninterested in history.


My apologies.

I think I tend to associate The Trinity unduly with the Trinity Broadcasting Company. :biggrin:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Mittens
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Mittens »

Hebrews 7
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Micah 5
2: But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.

Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

Mosiah 15
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Maksutov
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Maksutov »

So where is the explanation? I see a lot of theobabble and Christians still all disagree about the Trinity. :lol: So whatever "explanation" is offered doesn't "explain" sufficiently to convince others. There is no consensus on the nature of the Christian God or that of Jesus Christ. It is explained just like any other religious difference of East or West, a product of cultural differences generated by squabbling ordinary humans.

A bouquet of deepities, a bundle of Biblicisms, a feast of metahooey. And so it remains a "mystery" needing explanation. :cool:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Mittens
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Mittens »

Christians don't disagree with the Trinity, the meaning is "within The Nature of the ONE GOD are three separate and distinct persons" plain and simple
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Maksutov
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Maksutov »

Mittens wrote:Christians don't disagree with the Trinity, the meaning is "within The Nature of the ONE GOD are three separate and distinct persons" plain and simple


That isn't plain and simple, it's a contradiction. Quoting more gnomic statements won't help. And "Christians" don't all agree on ANYTHING, dude. They all believe differently, including on the Trinity/Godhead question.

Why not just say you don't understand it but you "believe" it anyway? You know, kind of like nuclear fission. Oh, except that there was an actual Trinity experiment and it worked. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Maksutov
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Maksutov »

huckelberry wrote:I know of no indication that Mormon leadership teaches that the Father and Son are the same person. Thinking that they do is a very odd misperception.


Apparently Mittens is unaware of Joseph's First Vision accounts. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_huckelberry
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _huckelberry »

Maksutov wrote:
Mittens wrote:Christians don't disagree with the Trinity, the meaning is "within The Nature of the ONE GOD are three separate and distinct persons" plain and simple


That isn't plain and simple, it's a contradiction. Quoting more gnomic statements won't help. And "Christians" don't all agree on ANYTHING, dude. They all believe differently, including on the Trinity/Godhead question.

Why not just say you don't understand it but you "believe" it anyway? You know, kind of like nuclear fission. Oh, except that there was an actual Trinity experiment and it worked. :lol:


Maksutov, I suppose that even though the vast vast majority of Christians have agreed about the Trinity for over 1500 years now there are scattered dissenters. The group centered in Salt Lake is the largest. Jehovah Witnesses probably next largest.

"Just believe like nuclear fission", I have some understanding of fission so do not have to just believe. On the other hand I do not have the detailed understanding to make a working bomb. My relationship to the Trinity is similar. I find no contradiction nor do I find much that complicated there. But you have no real interest in discussing the Trinity.

I would bet if you have an interest here it is in the power and religion relationship. I think that is both an interesting and serous topic. We, all humans live with it. My previous tiny note meant to point to what I see is a serious complexity. It is easy to think the power relationship is only that of authority figure controlling the sheep. I think the power relation flows both ways. Religion has been a way in which the little people pool their power to influence , control, the leaders. I could suspect that Constantine hoped to bring the Christian group more into his orbit by offering tolerance. It could be remembered that Constantine tolerated both pagans and Christians. He hoped by so doing to increase stability in his favor. It should be remembered that the Roman empire had huge waves of chaotic forces tossing emperors in and out. Little of that had anything to do with religious difference of beliefs.

As the Roman Christian church consolidated political power people who wished to resist that power could choose to attach themselves to dissenting groups. North African resistance to Roman control could express itself in the puritan Donatist movement. Rome to keep political control decided to use force to suppress that Christian group.

I think it is clear that the increase in reliance upon political unifiers other than religion since the 17th century has been a serious benefit. Not always however.
_Mittens
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Mittens »

Maksutov wrote:
huckelberry wrote:I know of no indication that Mormon leadership teaches that the Father and Son are the same person. Thinking that they do is a very odd misperception.


Apparently Mittens is unaware of Joseph's First Vision accounts. :lol:




Which one of 7 accounts are you referring too
:lol:
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
_Maksutov
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Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Maksutov »

Mittens wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
Apparently Mittens is unaware of Joseph's First Vision accounts. :lol:




Which one of 7 accounts are you referring too
:lol:


No argument there, dude. :lol:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Maksutov
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Re: The Trinity Explained

Post by _Maksutov »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism


Nontrinitarianism is a form of Christianity that rejects the mainstream Christian doctrine of the Trinity—the teaching that God is three distinct hypostases or persons who are coeternal, coequal, and indivisibly united in one being, or essence (from the Greek ousia). Certain religious groups that emerged during the Protestant Reformation have historically been known as antitrinitarian, but are not considered Protestant in popular discourse due to their nontrinitarian nature.

According to churches that consider the decisions of ecumenical councils final, Trinitarianism was definitively declared to be Christian doctrine at the 4th-century ecumenical councils,[1][2][3] that of the First Council of Nicaea (325), which declared the full divinity of the Son,[4] and the First Council of Constantinople (381), which declared the divinity of the Holy Spirit.[5]

In terms of number of adherents, nontrinitarian denominations comprise a minority of modern Christianity. The largest nontrinitarian Christian denominations are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("Mormons"), Oneness Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo and the Iglesia ni Cristo, though there are a number of other smaller groups, including Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Living Church of God, Assemblies of Yahweh, Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International, and the United Church of God.[6]

Nontrinitarian views differ widely on the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Various nontrinitarian philosophies, such as adoptionism, monarchianism, and subordinationism existed prior to the establishment of the Trinity doctrine in AD 325, 381, and 431, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus.[7] Nontrinitarianism was later renewed by Cathars in the 11th through 13th centuries, in the Unitarian movement during the Protestant Reformation, in the Age of Enlightenment of the 18th century, and in some groups arising during the Second Great Awakening of the 19th century.

The doctrine of the Trinity, as held in mainstream Christianity, is not present in the other major Abrahamic religions.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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