“King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

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Shulem
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Shulem »

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:23 pm
You are right. Someday we will crack it, and figure out how some of this will be the case. We've cracked some of it. It's only a matter of time now. And how would it not help the cause to actually crack this?

Someday, the pope may miraculously divide the Red Sea or Scientology will take over the world and force everyone to submit to their will. Someday, Book of Mormon Jesus may appear again and recover his lost sheep. All of this, of course, are fantasies.

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:23 pm
Answer me how demonstration that Joseph Smith was right on some points in unexpected ways will not help the cause?

You know, if I was to take up Chinese on my own without the aid of a legitimate source to learn what I was doing, I would be in a world of hurt. However, I’m sure that I could probably look at some Chinese art surrounded by texts and provide explanations guesses and might even be right about something. Even a monkey on a typewriter will manage to type a real word if he types long enough.

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:23 pm
This isn't about my expectation that you think it can be done, because I know you think it can't, and I know you have an overconfidence that it can't, and that's precisely where it will bite you. Its the same overconfidence people will have when Christ will show up and burn them, overconfidence that a God that was slain could not be resurrected and actually be in control of things, and how long he actually allows people like these to persist. I think it can be done, and I have faith that it can be done, because I've cracked some key pieces of it, notwithstanding both your rejection of it, and the apologists' rejection of it. Notwisthstanding my initial guess on the name of pharoah was wrong.

I’m quite sure that Christ is not going to show up and burn me. In fact, I’m positive that will not happen. I refuse to be frightened or intimidated by another man’s God. You know, this man Jesus died some 2,000 years ago and he will continue to remain in that state -- tomorrow, next year, and into the next century.

You may continue to try and crack the Book of Abraham until you are done trying. You get to decide when you’re finished.


Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:23 pm
What do you plan to do in the unlikely event (as you see it), that someone like me is right in an unexpected way? It is precisely that unexpected way that I have faith in, because I've seen enough to justify the belief that it is only a matter of time that this will be cracked. Just answer what you plan to do in that case because you are so certain of yourself that it is impossible?

You rely on faith that you will someday crack it. I rely on my knowledge that you have not cracked anything and what you want to crack is not crackable.

I’m 100% sure having perfect knowledge.
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Shulem »

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:34 pm
It means that I have to have evidence-based conclusions that are somewhat scientific in a certain sense, although being religious in nature, will never qualify as science, because some of the evidence employed is religiously based evidence, evidence that you have no regard for. That's fine.

And you can be sure that whatever you come with as you attempt to crack the Book of Abraham is going to fall far short of anything that will convince or convert nonmembers of the Church that Joseph Smith knew how to translate and interpret Egyptology as he claimed. Nonmembers of the Church are just as capable of quoting Joseph Smith and the eyewitnesses as are members of the Church. And what Joseph Smith said is what counts. Nobody will join the Church because of your Book of Abraham apologetics. It will be perceived as nonsense by the academic and scientific world. You may however develop a club and enjoy that.

With that said, carry on to your heart’s content. Take it as far as you like. Satisfy yourself until you are satisfied. Then, if you decide to shift, you can bail and do something different with your life. Doesn’t that sound exciting? Imagine the possibilities? You can even commit certain sins without feeling guilty. Life is wonderful!
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Ed1 »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:56 pm
You rely on faith that you will someday crack it. I rely on my knowledge that you have not cracked anything and what you want to crack is not crackable.

I’m 100% sure having perfect knowledge.
Are you aware of the scripture that the stone of stumbling becomes the foundation stone? What does this mean? It means that the stone of the foundation was the actual truth that causes others to stumble.

Why did they stumble? Because their view of the actual truth was limited and twisted and bent, and the actual truth is something else, which, when its manifest, becomes the foundation stone, where the Hor Papyrus finally is vindicated as an actual source for the Book of Abraham in an unexpected way, not in a way where there is some encoding or encryption, but in a straight-forward way, notwithstanding the Apologists who insist on a missing papyrus that doesn't and never did exist, except in ancient times when Abraham penned it and then it is no longer extant. Its like the weirdly bent light from galaxies behind others that is all twisted, and only relativity as discovered by Einstien explains that it is the gravity of the galaxies shows how they become bent.

You can't see the truth, because your view of the truth is distorted, and your oversimplification of the matter leads you to stumble. Certain facts are deliberately held from your view, and your understanding of the actual facts of the matter distored just enough for you to stumble, otherwise your free agency would not be preserved, and you would know the truth perfectly, and would not be in a position to reject the truth.
“Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise; seek what they sought.” ― Matsuo Basho
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Ed1 »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:10 pm
Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:34 pm
It means that I have to have evidence-based conclusions that are somewhat scientific in a certain sense, although being religious in nature, will never qualify as science, because some of the evidence employed is religiously based evidence, evidence that you have no regard for. That's fine.

And you can be sure that whatever you come with as you attempt to crack the Book of Abraham is going to fall far short of anything that will convince or convert nonmembers of the Church that Joseph Smith knew how to translate and interpret Egyptology as he claimed. Nonmembers of the Church are just as capable of quoting Joseph Smith and the eyewitnesses as are members of the Church. And what Joseph Smith said is what counts. Nobody will join the Church because of your Book of Abraham apologetics. It will be perceived as nonsense by the academic and scientific world. You may however develop a club and enjoy that.

With that said, carry on to your heart’s content. Take it as far as you like. Satisfy yourself until you are satisfied. Then, if you decide to shift, you can bail and do something different with your life. Doesn’t that sound exciting? Imagine the possibilities? You can even commit certain sins without feeling guilty. Life is wonderful!
Sins? Free of guilt? I'm sure that sounds nice to some people. For me, I want that which eye hath not seen nor ear heard, nor has entered into the heart of man. I want the treasures that are in heaven. And if I die and cease to exist, just think of the legacy and example of actual effort and hard work that I left my descendants, and they will see what I accomplished in spite of all this.
“Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise; seek what they sought.” ― Matsuo Basho
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Ed1 »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:10 pm
And you can be sure that whatever you come with as you attempt to crack the Book of Abraham is going to fall far short of anything that will convince or convert nonmembers of the Church that Joseph Smith knew how to translate and interpret Egyptology as he claimed.
If that is the case, it is by design so that the stone is a stone of stumbling, and the case that I can make is just enough for believers, if they aren't stuck on stupid things like a missing papyrus.

I'll say it again Paul, by invitation, join me again, repent, of your favorite sins that you say you like, and crack this thing with me.
“Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise; seek what they sought.” ― Matsuo Basho
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Shulem »

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:33 pm
Are you aware of the scripture that the stone of stumbling becomes the foundation stone? What does this mean? It means that the stone of the foundation was the actual truth that causes others to stumble.

I’m aware of all scripture having read the standards works more times than I have fingers and toes. I don’t care about the stone of stumbling or teachings associated with it. It’s irrelevant to the discussion. None of that has anything to do with the hieroglyphic writing in Facsimile No. 3.

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:33 pm
Why did they stumble? Because their view of the actual truth was limited and twisted and bent, and the actual truth is something else, which, when its manifest, becomes the foundation stone, where the Hor Papyrus finally is vindicated as an actual source for the Book of Abraham in an unexpected way, not in a way where there is some encoding or encryption, but in a straight-forward way, notwithstanding the Apologists who insist on a missing papyrus that doesn't and never did exist, except in ancient times when Abraham penned it and then it is no longer extant. Its like the weirdly bent light from galaxies behind others that is all twisted, and only relativity as discovered by Einstien explains that it is the gravity of the galaxies shows how they become bent.

Hmmm. For me, your statement is somewhat convoluted and all over the place. I’m sorry, but you don’t make sense to me. Perhaps I am overly logical? The Hor papyrus is what it is and I read it for what it actually says. Egyptologists can read the writing and it does not say what Joseph Smith said it said. No amount obfuscation on your part can change the facts. The desire to make religion true is not going to overturn science.

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:33 pm
You can't see the truth, because your view of the truth is distorted, and your oversimplification of the matter leads you to stumble. Certain facts are deliberately held from your view, and your understanding of the actual facts of the matter distored just enough for you to stumble, otherwise your free agency would not be preserved, and you would know the truth perfectly, and would not be in a position to reject the truth.

I’m not stumbling as you accuse me of doing any more than Robert Ritner or any other competent Egyptologist who can read the writing above the head of Fig. 2, and I know what the writing says and am not misunderstanding anything about it. Ed, you use faith and religion to try and overturn science and tell me that I don’t know truth when I most certainly do and can prove it. There is no king’s name in Facsimile No. 3. That is truth and always will be.

So, really, you’ve accomplished nothing.
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Shulem »

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:36 pm
Sins? Free of guilt? I'm sure that sounds nice to some people. For me, I want that which eye hath not seen nor ear heard, nor has entered into the heart of man. I want the treasures that are in heaven. And if I die and cease to exist, just think of the legacy and example of actual effort and hard work that I left my descendants, and they will see what I accomplished in spite of all this.

It doesn’t just sound nice to be free of guilt and sin that Mormonism heaps on its members but it FEELS wonderful and provides peace to the inner soul. It’s truly a relief not to be burdened by the accusations that religion heaps upon its members. But that’s entirely another story...

Ed, you say you want what “eye hath not seen” and in this you are living for something you cannot see or know in this life -- you walk entirely on faith believing in promises given to you by religion but cannot be substantiated in fact, otherwise it’s not faith. I on the other hand don’t walk by faith. I see the writing in Facsimile No. 3 and I know what it says. I see it right before my eyes and know that the writing has nothing to do with a mortal Egyptian king’s name any more than the breasts on Isis’s chest are not that of a man. My eyes do not lie. It was Joseph Smith that told the lies and many believed him.

Ed, you say you want the treasures in heaven. What? What are treasures other than peace of mind and freewill to be who we want to be? I don’t want treasure! I don’t want the promises of gold paved streets and buildings made of jewels. All of that is fantasy and a spiritual bribe to woo people into the faith. But not me! No thanks, I like me for who I am and am not living for some unseen God that demands I do this and not do that. Leaving Mormonism and rejecting the Book of Abraham was the smartest decision of my entire life. Looking back on my former life I can see how stunted and miserable I was trying to live that religion by lying to myself and not being authentic and true to myself.

And for the record, I don’t think you’ll cease to exist when you die. I believe that consciousness lasts forever and we live forever as part of the mind of God. I wrote quite a few chapters about this subject in another thread on this board entitled God, the Meaning of Life. I very much believe in God.
Last edited by Shulem on Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

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Shulem wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:28 am
Ed, you say you want the treasures in heaven. What? What are treasures other than peace of mind and freewill to be who we want to be?
Some people take great comfort in believing that they are going to be a god in the very near future.

I think peace of mind and freewill is a greater reward. That's something even God doesn't have. He's constantly angry and disappointed, and he has to follow someone else's rules (apparently) that force him to eternally punish his children against his own better judgement under the threat that if he goes too easy on them he will "cease to be God" (Alma 42:14).
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Father Francis »

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:33 pm

Are you aware of the scripture that the stone of stumbling becomes the foundation stone? What does this mean? It means that the stone of the foundation was the actual truth that causes others to stumble.

Why did they stumble? Because their view of the actual truth was limited and twisted and bent, and the actual truth is something else, which, when its manifest, becomes the foundation stone, where the Hor Papyrus finally is vindicated as an actual source for the Book of Abraham in an unexpected way, not in a way where there is some encoding or encryption, but in a straight-forward way, notwithstanding the Apologists who insist on a missing papyrus that doesn't and never did exist, except in ancient times when Abraham penned it and then it is no longer extant. Its like the weirdly bent light from galaxies behind others that is all twisted, and only relativity as discovered by Einstien explains that it is the gravity of the galaxies shows how they become bent.

You can't see the truth, because your view of the truth is distorted, and your oversimplification of the matter leads you to stumble. Certain facts are deliberately held from your view, and your understanding of the actual facts of the matter distored just enough for you to stumble, otherwise your free agency would not be preserved, and you would know the truth perfectly, and would not be in a position to reject the truth.
This a bizarre statement to make.

The "stumbling stone" you reference is actually the foundation for a new faith amongst people who left the church because their truth claims don't add up. Also, silly to think you're educating ex-Mormons on scripture. We've read them.

Next point, "straight-forward"? That's what the actual translation done by Egyptologists is. Listen to them. Then maybe take a look at the pseudo astronomy lesson in the Book of Abraham...

As far as truth being distorted? I left the church because of their obvious obfuscation of the truth. So did many others. When Shulem talks about sinning guilt free he is mocking your Puritanical sense of what sin is (correct me if I'm wrong, don't mean to put words in your mouth)
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Shulem »

Hagoth wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:17 am
Shulem wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:28 am
Ed, you say you want the treasures in heaven. What? What are treasures other than peace of mind and freewill to be who we want to be?
Some people take great comfort in believing that they are going to be a god in the very near future.

I think peace of mind and freewill is a greater reward. That's something even God doesn't have. He's constantly angry and disappointed, and he has to follow someone else's rules (apparently) that force him to eternally punish his children against his own better judgement under the threat that if he goes too easy on them he will "cease to be God" (Alma 42:14).

Ed looks forward to treasure in heaven and the hope of being a god after the manner of Mormonism which is certainly his right and religious freedom. All I’m saying is that faith in Mormonism is not going to produce a king’s name in Facsimile No. 3 and can’t turn Isis into a mortal king who allows an Asiatic foreigner to sit on his throne. The interpretations given by Joseph Smith about the Facsimile cannot be substantiated by any means.

Anyway, Ed is welcome in the thread. Let him deal with the king’s name that does not exist. He’s in the same boat with all the other Mormon apologists. Defending Smith and presenting a logical explanation is impossible.
Last edited by Shulem on Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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