“King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

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Shulem
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Shulem »

Father Francis wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:40 am
Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:33 pm

Are you aware of the scripture that the stone of stumbling becomes the foundation stone? What does this mean? It means that the stone of the foundation was the actual truth that causes others to stumble.

Why did they stumble? Because their view of the actual truth was limited and twisted and bent, and the actual truth is something else, which, when its manifest, becomes the foundation stone, where the Hor Papyrus finally is vindicated as an actual source for the Book of Abraham in an unexpected way, not in a way where there is some encoding or encryption, but in a straight-forward way, notwithstanding the Apologists who insist on a missing papyrus that doesn't and never did exist, except in ancient times when Abraham penned it and then it is no longer extant. Its like the weirdly bent light from galaxies behind others that is all twisted, and only relativity as discovered by Einstien explains that it is the gravity of the galaxies shows how they become bent.

You can't see the truth, because your view of the truth is distorted, and your oversimplification of the matter leads you to stumble. Certain facts are deliberately held from your view, and your understanding of the actual facts of the matter distored just enough for you to stumble, otherwise your free agency would not be preserved, and you would know the truth perfectly, and would not be in a position to reject the truth.
This a bizarre statement to make.

The "stumbling stone" you reference is actually the foundation for a new faith amongst people who left the church because their truth claims don't add up. Also, silly to think you're educating ex-Mormons on scripture. We've read them.

Next point, "straight-forward"? That's what the actual translation done by Egyptologists is. Listen to them. Then maybe take a look at the pseudo astronomy lesson in the Book of Abraham...

As far as truth being distorted? I left the church because of their obvious obfuscation of the truth. So did many others. When Shulem talks about sinning guilt free he is mocking your Puritanical sense of what sin is (correct me if I'm wrong, don't mean to put words in your mouth)

Ed’s statement is “bizarre” which is why I labeled it as convoluted or something I just couldn’t wrap my own head around. It’s like, come on, please just talk normal. I don’t mean to offend Ed by saying that or being snide and apologize if that is how I come across. I read what he was saying and it didn’t make sense to me and then the bit about God burning people reminded me how religion is set up to threaten anyone and everyone who fails to embrace its beliefs. Mormonism has a long list of what is considered sin. But I look at Mormonism as a whole and for me the whole thing in and of itself is a kind of sin because it’s oppressive and often hurtful. But that’s me talking and how I see it. I am so glad to be out of Mormonism because it made it possible to be who I really am and live the kind of life that makes me happy and feel full and alive. Mormonism was not an authentic way of living for me. I was stunted and boxed in and couldn’t be myself.

Anyway, Ed, you are welcome to take another crack at the king’s name, if you so choose. Thanks for chiming in this thread. I hope you read the entire thread because it is the go-to thread to counter whatever apologists come up with for Facsimile No. 3. I’ve set the bar! Just try and get over it if you can. I’ll be here watching and will defend the truth. I think the best thing you can do is simply admit that there is no king’s name in the writing. I hope that is what you do.
Last edited by Shulem on Wed Jan 05, 2022 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moksha
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Re: “King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head”

Post by Moksha »

Ed1 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:33 pm
Are you aware of the scripture that the stone of stumbling becomes the foundation stone?
On the other hand, if the foundation is blarney, that does not make it the Blarney Stone.
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Father Francis »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:41 am
Defending Smith and presenting a logical explanation is impossible.
You and I agree on this point, as well as on many other points as well.

I just can't figure out what your thing with Fac 3 is. I mean, I get that Joseph Smith didn't even come close to the real Egyptian on Fac 3, but he didn't even come close on the other two. He was a fraud. Pure and simple. Just ask the next missionary you meet how many wives he had. I bet the only one they know is Emma.

Why Fac 3?

Honest question, and I've been reading this forum long enough to expect an honest answer from you
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Shulem »

Father Francis wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:16 am
Shulem wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:41 am
Defending Smith and presenting a logical explanation is impossible.
You and I agree on this point, as well as on many other points as well.

I just can't figure out what your thing with Fac 3 is. I mean, I get that Joseph Smith didn't even come close to the real Egyptian on Fac 3, but he didn't even come close on the other two. He was a fraud. Pure and simple. Just ask the next missionary you meet how many wives he had. I bet the only one they know is Emma.

Why Fac 3?

Honest question, and I've been reading this forum long enough to expect an honest answer from you

I’ve discussed the Book of Abraham for many years on this board. Facsimile No. 3 has a special place in my heart because it rings like a bell, loud and clear in which everyone can hear it and be seen for what it is. Everyone can relate to it and understand in simple terms. The scene therein is unique to what it expresses. There is only one answer key in giving correct explanations for what the scene truly represents -- it’s black & white and male & female -- pure and simple. There are 5 persons in the scene, they are who they are, there for a specific purpose. There is only one way to identify them and describe who they are and what they are doing.

I’ve provided material in several threads over the years about Facsimile No. 3 and have used it as a popular sounding board to take a swipe or a fatal blow to Smith’s translations of ancient Egypt. Several years ago, board member Philo Sofee started a thread down in the Terrestrial Forum entitled:

Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent.

The thread provides an interesting narrative into the topic matter. I like how Facsimile No. 3 provides a swift and definite demonstration in showing just how wrong Smith was and that his inspiration in interpreting and translating Egyptian was a fraud. He was shooting from the hip using self-deception as his personal manner of enlightenment.

I hope that answers your question, somewhat
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Stop!

Post by Shulem »

What good are the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 as they relate to the vignette published in the Pearl of Great Price? How do they possibly serve to enlighten modern human understanding of what the ancient Egyptian priest originally drew in order to assist their dead with religious funerary rites? How can the Church continue to publish the garbage peddled by Smith who usurped sacred writings of another religion in order to make him look like he knew as much as the Egyptian who originally created it?

This must stop! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must stop publishing lies and deception and cease slandering the Egyptians. Come clean and bear the vessels of the Lord in whom you claim to worship. The continuous publication of lies is shameful and not only that but it’s sinful.

It must stop.
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Father Francis »

Shulem wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:23 pm

I’ve discussed the Book of Abraham for many years on this board. Facsimile No. 3 has a special place in my heart because it rings like a bell, loud and clear in which everyone can hear it and be seen for what it is. Everyone can relate to it and understand in simple terms. The scene therein is unique to what it expresses. There is only one answer key in giving correct explanations for what the scene truly represents -- it’s black & white and male & female -- pure and simple. There are 5 persons in the scene, they are who they are, there for a specific purpose. There is only one way to identify them and describe who they are and what they are doing.

I’ve provided material in several threads over the years about Facsimile No. 3 and have used it as a popular sounding board to take a swipe or a fatal blow to Smith’s translations of ancient Egypt. Several years ago, board member Philo Sofee started a thread down in the Terrestrial Forum entitled:

Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent.

The thread provides an interesting narrative into the topic matter. I like how Facsimile No. 3 provides a swift and definite demonstration in showing just how wrong Smith was and that his inspiration in interpreting and translating Egyptian was a fraud. He was shooting from the hip using self-deception as his personal manner of enlightenment.

I hope that answers your question, somewhat
Kind of. I still don't see how the other facsimiles false translation are any less damning.
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Father Francis »

Father Francis wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:07 pm
Shulem wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:23 pm

I’ve discussed the Book of Abraham for many years on this board. Facsimile No. 3 has a special place in my heart because it rings like a bell, loud and clear in which everyone can hear it and be seen for what it is. Everyone can relate to it and understand in simple terms. The scene therein is unique to what it expresses. There is only one answer key in giving correct explanations for what the scene truly represents -- it’s black & white and male & female -- pure and simple. There are 5 persons in the scene, they are who they are, there for a specific purpose. There is only one way to identify them and describe who they are and what they are doing.

I’ve provided material in several threads over the years about Facsimile No. 3 and have used it as a popular sounding board to take a swipe or a fatal blow to Smith’s translations of ancient Egypt. Several years ago, board member Philo Sofee started a thread down in the Terrestrial Forum entitled:

Facsimile 3 Assessed and found fraudulent.

The thread provides an interesting narrative into the topic matter. I like how Facsimile No. 3 provides a swift and definite demonstration in showing just how wrong Smith was and that his inspiration in interpreting and translating Egyptian was a fraud. He was shooting from the hip using self-deception as his personal manner of enlightenment.

I hope that answers your question, somewhat
Kind of. I still don't see how the other facsimiles false translations are any less damning.
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Shulem »

Father Francis wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:07 pm
Kind of. I still don't see how the other facsimiles false translation are any less damning.

All of the translations tendered by Smith are damning. I’ve written a lot of material over the years on all three Facsimiles and much of that is on this board. The link in my signature will take you directly to Facsimile No. 1 where I spend a great deal of time showing how Smith was wrong about everything he said.

Pearl of Great Price Central Facsimile 1 as a Sacrifice Scene

Facsimile No. 3 is simple and straightforward. Children can easily identify with the characters therein as they relate to Egyptian mythology. A child can identify that the women therein are not men but are something entirely different than what Smith is saying. And anyone who knows anything about Egypt will know straight away that the nose of Anubis has been butchered and ruthlessly hacked out.

Isn’t that right, John Gee? Mormon Egyptologists have no choice but to admit that the person is Anubis. Game over!
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Father Francis »

Shulem wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:45 pm
Father Francis wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:07 pm
Kind of. I still don't see how the other facsimiles false translation are any less damning.

All of the translations tendered by Smith are damning. I’ve written a lot of material over the years on all three Facsimiles and much of that is on this board. The link in my signature will take you directly to Facsimile No. 1 where I spend a great deal of time showing how Smith was wrong about everything he said.

Pearl of Great Price Central Facsimile 1 as a Sacrifice Scene

Facsimile No. 3 is simple and straightforward. Children can easily identify with the characters therein as they relate to Egyptian mythology. A child can identify that the women therein are not men but are something entirely different than what Smith is saying. And anyone who knows anything about Egypt will know straight away that the nose of Anubis has been butchered and ruthlessly hacked out.

Isn’t that right, John Gee? Mormon Egyptologists have no choice but to admit that the person is Anubis. Game over!

Thanks for the explanation. I agree and I have to wonder how John Gee ever got his graduate degree and still clings to nonsense that he has to know just isn't true.
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Re: Eccentric apologist Ed Goble

Post by Shulem »

Father Francis wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:57 pm
Thanks for the explanation. I agree and I have to wonder how John Gee ever got his graduate degree and still clings to nonsense that he has to know just isn't true.

John Gee earned a Ph.D. at Yale and is a fully competent and learned Egyptologist. I have absolutely nothing to say about his competence and ability to understand and interpret Egyptology on a professional level that meet or exceeds any and all requirements in that discipline.

My problem with Gee is that his integrity and values are muddied by his religious ideals that it’s okay to lie in order to defend Mormonism. It’s okay to twist and distort and misrepresent facts in order to paint them in a light to create a narrative that meets with Smith’s version of Egyptology and is approved by leader’s of today’s Church. Gee’s hands are tied! He must do everything that meets the approval of his employer or they will fire him. In order to keep his job and maintain testimony in Mormonism, Gee has put church employment ahead of truth and honesty.

The whole thing is a tragedy. It’s all about justifying lying for the Lord. Dan Vogel makes a point of that in his book when mentioning how Abraham lied to the Egyptians about Sara being his sister rather than his wife. What Abraham said was an outright lie and apparently Joseph Smith picked up on it and Mormons today use this principle of lying for the Lord as a way to defend the Church.

Dan Vogel wrote:As Abraham continues his journey to Egypt, he begins to worry that the Egyptians might murder him to gain sexual access to his beautiful wife, Sarah. However, instead of Abraham’s telling Sarah to inform the Egyptians that she is his sister, as the Genesis story states, Smith’s version has God tell Abraham to tell Sarah to lie about their marital status (Abr. 2:24).
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