The First Vision

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Re: The First Vision

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Visions of the Christian God are founded on the idea that to see Christ is to see the Father. Joseph Smith, like everyone else in his time, had to formulate an understanding in his own mind what the Godhead entailed. Smith’s early declaration was based on common biblical teachings:

D&C 93:3 wrote:And that I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one

In the 1832 First Vision account, Smith tells of seeing God in a singular sense as one Person. Thus, the “Lord of glory” is seen as God himself, even at his right hand because Christ is in God, of God, and around God in all things. The concept is that they are one God manifested as the Father & Son.

Smith took into consideration the account Jesus gave to his apostles in John:

John 14:7-9 wrote:If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The First Vision account of Joseph Smith seeing Christ is agreeable to the teachings of the Bible and is evidence that seeing ONE PERSON as God was all Smith ever claimed until he got the papyrus and staring thinking in terms of plural gods as did the Egyptians. This is when Smith began to change his theology and story.
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Lehi sees God

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Joseph Smith’s beliefs of an anthropomorphic God stem from his understanding of the Bible rather than the later beliefs of Two Men each having bodies of flesh and bone (D&C 130). This is clearly expressed early in the Book of Mormon which lends itself to visions had by certain prophets in the Old Testament who described Jehovah in anthropomorphic terms although he was believed to have been a Spirit. The Old Testament is clearly on record as representing God as one Person and one Person only--the Spirit of God!

1 Nephi 1:8 wrote: And being thus overcome with the Spirit, he was carried away in a vision, even that he saw the heavens open, and he thought he saw God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels in the attitude of singing and praising their God.

The Spirit of God had fallen upon Lehi and he was granted a vision of seeing God (one Person) upon his heavenly throne surrounded by angels.

1 Nephi 1:9 wrote:And it came to pass that he saw One descending out of the midst of heaven, and he beheld that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day.

Notice that Lehi saw “ONE” descending out of the midst of heaven, leaving the “THRONE” to go forth and that his luster is “above the brightness of the sun” as described in the 1832 First Vision account.

1 Nephi 1:10 wrote:And he also saw twelve others following him, and their brightness did exceed that of the stars in the firmament.

Now comes the pitch for the Christian God and the prophecy of twelve apostles. But note that it was only ONE Person at the throne whereby ONE Person descended from heaven and that his luster was above that of the sun at noon-day. That was the Lord of glory that Smith described in his 1832 first Vision account.

In the Book of Mormon, Lehi Joseph Smith did not describe seeing Two Persons at heaven’s throne but his account was in line with how Old Testament prophets described God as one Person (one only) which *IS* the Spirit of the Lord being manifested.
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Nephi Sees God

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Again, the anthropomorphic Book of Mormon God is made manifest, this time to Nephi. This is in line with how Old Testament prophets described God as appearing as a Man but he is none other than the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Nephi 11:2 wrote:And the Spirit said unto me: Behold, what desirest thou?

Note that God himself is speaking to Nephi. It isn’t an angel or some other heavenly being. It is God, the Spirit of the Lord who is speaking.

1 Nephi 11:6 wrote:And when I had spoken these words, the Spirit cried with a loud voice, saying: Hosanna to the Lord, the most high God; for he is God over all the earth, yea, even above all.

God offers self-praises to himself as he is accustomed to do in the Bible. It’s Jehovah’s own loud voice of praise. There is no greater praise than God praising himself which is what he was so apt to do!

1 Nephi 11:11 wrote:And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

All of this is familiar and reminds us of how biblical Jacob and Moses communed with the Lord, face to face just like friends having a conversation. The Spirit is described as being in the form of a man just as other prophets described Jehovah’s appearance when manifesting himself spiritually. This is exactly what Joseph Smith was originally implying as he told the story while speaking from the bottom of a hat.

Like the Bible, the Book of Mormon God was a one-man band.
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Re: The First Vision

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Dear Reader,

This thread is going to transition and expand in ways that perhaps you’ve not anticipated. I want to take you on a ride and explore other accounts given by Joseph Smith that lead us to understand that young Joseph was not of the belief that Heavenly Father was a separate Being apart from Jesus. These accounts will shed additional light showing that Smith had no idea that the Father was a Man having a body of flesh and bone until he developed these ideas by working with the Egyptian papyri in Kirtland and especially Nauvoo.

We will explore the following concepts:

1) God manifesting himself to Enoch in the Book of Moses
2) God manifesting himself to Moses in the Book of Moses
3) God manifesting himself to the brother of Jared in the Book of Mormon
4) King James Jesus manifesting himself to the Nephites

I feel confident once we have explored these topics it will become clearer that Joseph Smith had no idea that God the Father had a body at the time of his First Vision. It will become apparent that young Joseph did not conceive that God the Father was a physical Man being housed in a body of flesh and bone. He did NOT see the Father in his First Vision as he later claimed in his fuller descriptions of his alleged experience.

Please, do continue to follow this thread. I hope to enrich and enlighten your understanding of what Joseph Smith actually claimed in talking about the First Vision in 1832 prior to changing his story in order to move on with the evolution of his theology of God’s Person(s).
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Re: Enoch walked with God

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Let’s peek into the Book of Moses and see how Joseph Smith’s biblical Enoch walked with God. Let’s see if we can find Two Persons, shall we? Bear in mind at this time according to Smith’s later theology, the Father had a body but the Son did not seeing he was bodiless like the Holy Ghost, a Personage of spirit only. But it’s clear from the narrative that visions had by Enoch as reported by Joseph Smith were certainly far greater than the one young Joseph had while in the grove. We can deduce that Enoch failed to report that the Father has a body of flesh and bone because Smith had not learned that until late in his ministry. The visions of Enoch say nothing about the all important attribute of God’s physical character. That is a red flag!

Moses 6:26 wrote:And it came to pass that Enoch journeyed in the land, among the people; and as he journeyed, the Spirit of God descended out of heaven, and abode upon him.

Jesus taught that God is a spirit (John 4:26) and Smith clarified his understanding of God by introducing a new translation saying, “For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.” When Smith retranslated (edited) the account given in St John, he never said anything about God the Father having a body but only that man must worship God in spirit and in truth which was the universal belief of Christians and Jews who taught that God was a spirit.

Moses 6:27 wrote:And he heard a voice from heaven, saying: Enoch, my son, prophesy unto this people,

Now comes the voice of God through the Spirit that descended out of heaven.

1. Voice
2. Spirit
3. God

Moses 6:36 wrote: And he beheld the spirits that God had created; and he beheld also things which were not visible to the natural eye;

Enoch beheld all manner of spirits that God had created and things not known or seen by the natural eyes of mere mortals.

Moses 6:42 wrote:And it came to pass, as I journeyed from the land of Cainan, by the sea east, I beheld a vision; and lo, the heavens I saw, and the Lord spake with me,

Unlike Joseph in a grove of trees, Enoch experienced a vision of seeing God and heaven by the east sea.

Moses 6:62 wrote:And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Now we get a conversation between God and Enoch. It’s the Father doing the speaking because he refers to “mine Only Begotten” and this is reminiscent of the manifestations we get in the Bible such as at Jesus’s baptism. Clearly, it’s not a manifestation from the Son in whom Enoch is conversing with but the FATHER ONLY! The Son says nothing! The Son is something yet to come, something yet to be manifested, later when he makes his appearance in the meridian of time. Hence, Enoch is not talking to Jesus but to the Father of Jesus who is God.

Moses 7:3 wrote: And it came to pass that I turned and went up on the mount; and as I stood upon the mount, I beheld the heavens open, and I was clothed upon with glory;

Enoch climbs mount Simeon and the heavens are opened to him in a grand and glorious vision that far exceeds anything Smith said about his First Vision.

Moses 7:4 wrote:And I saw the Lord; and he stood before my face, and he talked with me, even as a man talketh one with another, face to face; and he said unto me: Look, and I will show unto thee the world for the space of many generations.

Again, Enoch meets God and hears his voice. It is the Lord. But Enoch never says anything about God having a body of flesh and bone. Only that he’s speaking to him, face to face. As far as we are given to understand by Joseph Smith’s telling of the story, God is a Spirit.

Moses 7:24 wrote:And there came generation upon generation; and Enoch was high and lifted up, even in the bosom of the Father, and of the Son of Man;

Now we shift from a traditional description of the Person of God as typified in the Old Testament and Smith gives us a Christian accounting of sorts. We get both the Father and Son. Enoch is in God’s bosom, high and lifted up, perhaps he can’t go any further! You’d think that Enoch would have learned that the Father has a body of flesh and bone and that the Son is only spirit. But nothing is said regarding this. We get the impression that the Father & Son are one as expressed in Christendom. Nothing is said about two separate Persons. Nobody says anything about God having a body!

Moses 7:27 wrote:And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.

The full array of all things biblical from both Testaments now comes to play as Enoch’s so-called Zion is caught up into glory:

1. Angels
2. Father
3. Son
4. Holy Ghost

Moses 7:28 wrote:And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept;

This reminds us of how Jesus was fraught over the death of Lazarus and grieved at his burial, “JESUS WEPT”!

The full emotion expressed from the sadness of Jesus’s grief in the Bible is manifest in the highly charged and emotional God who seems to drown the earth with his incessant tears. Someone, please console Enoch’s God because he’s lost the ability to cope with the fact that his children want to live their own lives rather than do what he says. God is utterly codependent on his children obeying him lest he become unhappy and cry out an endless stream of tears. We may reason that this weeping is a symbolic expression in the story and there are no physical tear ducts in eyelids that are dripping tears from a Man made of flesh and bone. But the story does not say one way or the other about whether God has a body of flesh and bone. All we are told is God is a Spirit and he is Holy.

Moses 7:35 wrote:Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

We are told that God is a Man of Holiness but nothing is said about him having a body of flesh and bone. The word “Man” used to describe God can be taken in many different ways. The Bible also says God is a man of war. The word is employed in a generic sense to describe strength and power rather than a literal description of a man of flesh and bones.

Moses 7:47 wrote: And behold, Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man, even in the flesh; and his soul rejoiced, saying: The Righteous is lifted up, and the Lamb is slain from the foundation of the world; and through faith I am in the bosom of the Father, and behold, Zion is with me.

This is a futuristic scene of God manifesting himself as the Son of Man to be crucified in the flesh. This was a prophecy and something in which Enoch was to base his faith in.

Moses 7:53 wrote: And the Lord said: Blessed is he through whose seed Messiah shall come; for he saith—I am Messiah, the King of Zion, the Rock of Heaven, which is broad as eternity

While Enoch is in the bosom of the Father the Lord declares “I am Messiah” or in other words the very God in whom Enoch is dealing with is the very Father of heaven and earth and will manifest himself as the Son in the meridian of time. There is only ONE God!

Moses 7:55 wrote:And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men;

The prophecy is that the Lord will come down and be crucified.

Moses 7:59 wrote: And Enoch beheld the Son of Man ascend up unto the Father; and he called unto the Lord, saying: Wilt thou not come again upon the earth? Forasmuch as thou art God, and I know thee, and thou hast sworn unto me, and commanded me that I should ask in the name of thine Only Begotten; thou hast made me, and given unto me a right to thy throne, and not of myself, but through thine own grace; wherefore, I ask thee if thou wilt not come again on the earth.

The conversation and the questions from Enoch are conclusive in showing that he was talking to one person and one person only, the Lord. Enoch’s conversation takes place within the bosom of the Father who tells him that he will later manifest as the Son and be killed. To this Enoch questions the Lord (Father) asking if he will return again to the earth after his death.

Moses 7:60 wrote: And the Lord said unto Enoch: As I live, even so will I come in the last days, in the days of wickedness and vengeance, to fulfil the oath which I have made unto you concerning the children of Noah;

The Father reveals that he will indeed come again in the last days!

Moses 7:62 wrote:And righteousness will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.

The prophecy melds the Father & Son as one. But in all this we are not shown them to be separate and distinct Persons in heaven having separate bodies: One having a body of flesh and bone and the other only spirit. This is something Joseph Smith had not yet conceived.
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Moses saw God

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Moses 1:2 wrote: And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.

Here Moses is given a full on personal encounter with the God of the Old Testament. This is a face to face encounter between two persons and two persons only.

Moses 1:3 wrote: And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

Jehovah announces his greatness insomuch as he is the Almighty and there is no one greater than him, period. Jehovah looks down and does not look up. Absolutely everything is beneath him.

Moses 1:6 wrote: And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

A Freudian slip on Joseph Smith’s part is detected in “shall be the Savior” rather than *IS* the Savior. Other scripture given by Smith attests that the Son assumed the role of Savior immediately after Adam fell. But here we have the Father telling Moses that his Only Begotten shall be the Savior as if later down the line. All this is a clear indication that it’s God the Father that is doing the speaking and that the Son will be manifest later as explained earlier to Enoch. Do note that Jehovah makes the point that there is no God beside him. There is only one God and he is it.

Moses 1:11 wrote: But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.

Moses says he was transfigured and that he was changed in such a manner that he could endure the very presence of God without withering. Moses saw God’s face and encountered his Personage up close and personal. But is anything said about God having a body of flesh and bone? Is anything said about two Persons (Father & Son) standing together side by side as separate Beings, one having a body and one not?

Moses 1:31 wrote: And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me

Again, Moses stood before God and spoke to him face to face. If ever there was a time in which Moses and Joseph Smith would know that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s this is it! But no, that is not part of the testimony. Evidently it was not important for anyone to know that God has a body, not until 1843 to meet the needs of Smith’s changing theology.
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Re: The First Vision

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Joseph Smith Handwritten Account of the 1832 First Vision wrote: I cried unto the Lord for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness and while in the attitude of calling upon the Lord a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life.

The single most important factor that screams from the handwritten First Vision account given by the prophet Joseph Smith is that his visionary experience involved an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ and ONLY the Lord, no one else was made manifest. It was a visionary experience between Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ -- NOBODY else is mentioned.

Look, this is exactly what Smith originally expressed when he set his pen to paper without dictating to a scribe:

Joseph Smith wrote:“I cried unto the Lord [JESUS CHRIST] for mercy for there was none else to whom I could go and to obtain mercy and the Lord [JESUS CHRIST] heard my cry in the wilderness and while in the attitude of calling upon the Lord [JESUS CHRIST] a piller of fire light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me and I was filled with the spirit of god and the Lord [JESUS CHRIST] opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord [JESUS CHRIST] and he spake unto me saying Joseph my son thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy way walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord [JESUS CHRIST] of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life.”

That *IS* the first testimony Joseph Smith ever gave about his First Vision and it accurately reflects exactly what he was thinking about how to relate the special relationship he felt he had with God in a public way. What we get here in 1832 is the original account. The accounts that came later were nothing more than embellishments and add-ons.
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Brother of Jared is given the Finger!

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The Book of Mormon account of the brother of Jared having a personal encounter in the very presence of God himself claims to exceed all the other previous visions had by former prophets, including pre-flood Enoch who was caught up into God’s bosom. Smith’s later account of pre-flood Enoch in the Book of Moses certainly questions the validity of the claim made in Ether which states that the brother of Jared’s vision and his personal experience with God was up to that point the most intimate and divine encounter ever experience by man (Ether 3:15). But how can that be? Enoch’s account given in the Book of Moses challenges that assertion! We are led to believe that Enoch’s visionary experience in the presence of God was supreme in nature! And yet the previous account given in the Book of Mormon challenges that later assertion and tells us that the brother of Jared’s experience was greater and thus discounts Enoch’s vision of being in the very bosom of the Father and Son and watching God himself weep like a baby! It seems that Joseph Smith was confused with his own storytelling of God granting visions and how it relates to his OWN imagined experience that he would later tell and how that account would vary and change. Yes, Smith was confused and caught in the very act of telling stories all based on fiction out of his own imagination.

Joseph Smith’s invented story of how the brother of Jared saw the Lord is reminiscent on how biblical Moses met with God on Mount Sinai and that the Ten Commandments were written with “the finger of God”. The “finger” being the key in making things seem biblical in nature. Likewise, the brother of Jared sees the finger of God and that is what makes the vision expand into a greater experience, much like what we learned about Enoch and Moses according to Smith’s accounts previously tendered in this thread.

So, on to the finger and let’s see how this vision was GREATER than previously experienced by Enoch on the other side of the flood.

Ether 3:8-10 wrote: And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me.

Note that man had NEVER had the kind of faith exhibited by the brother of Jared and that because of this faith he is granted the privilege of seeing God’s finger. If it was not because of that level of faith, he could NOT have seen God’s finger! But what about Enoch who lived long before the brother of Jared on the other side of the flood? Did he not see God’s finger when he was caught up into God’s bosom and talked with him face to face while God cried his eyes out?

This *is* a hole in the script and a fatal error made by Joseph Smith in telling stories about man seeing God!

I will further expose Joseph Smith’s deception.
Last edited by Shulem on Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brother of Jared

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The dialogue between the brother of Jared and God is not very bright. How so? Well, the Lord just got done telling him that his faith was greater than anyone else had ever expressed and by it he saw the finger of God. But in the Lord’s next breath he asks, “Believest thou the words which I shall speak?” What is the point in asking such a dimwitted question to the most faithful man that ever lived? Of course, he believes, else how would he see your finger? The dialogue is simply unbelievable. It’s childish beyond measure.

In spite of this, the brother of Jared relents and confirms that he believes the Lord because God is always truthful and doesn’t lie. That certainly makes sense. And so, his reward is that the Lord showed himself to him and redeemed him from the fall. This of course seems pretty much what happened to Enoch when he was high and lifted up in the bosom of the Father and Son. Surely, Enoch also saw more than just a finger because of his great faith. He would have seen the Lord to the same degree and glory as did the brother of Jared. But the Book of Mormon account does not grant that because never before had man seen God like the brother of Jared did, NOT even Enoch. Thus, the accounts contradict each other and Smith’s storytelling is fatally flawed.

Here we see that God is revealing himself, yet again, as the Father and the Son. ONE Person. The brother of Jared, like Enoch, and later like Moses sees only a single Person, God expressed as being both the Father and Son while coupled with the concept of the Spirit comprises the Christian Godhead. If you can believe, it’s another sneak preview into Christianity.

Ether 3:14,15 wrote:Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.

So, what was Enoch? Chopped liver?
Last edited by Shulem on Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brother of Jared sees God face to face

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Ether 3:16 wrote:Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Which concludes the testimony given to the brother of Jared that God is ONE PERSON who is expressed in different ways and in different times. The record clearly states that he saw ONE PERSON who is the Lord, the Father and Son, the very God of the Bible. This of course is exactly what Joseph expressed in his 1832 account of the First Vision. Never at that time did Smith say he saw “TWO” Persons or that the Father “pointed” to another Person, being the Son. All of that was a later construct that was fashioned or imagined in Smith’s mind after he obtained the papyrus in 1835.
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