The First Vision

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Philo Sofee
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dude, we're gonna roast em to charcoal.... you are giving me fabulous information for me to make spectacular slides of all this!
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Shulem
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:29 am
Dude, we're gonna roast em to charcoal.... you are giving me fabulous information for me to make spectacular slides of all this!

Dude, what makes the whole thing utterly fascinating is how First Vision accounts offer different perspectives for the purpose in which they were intended. The early account is for the sole purpose of calling Smith to the work and to reveal that the world had fallen away from God because hearts were far from him and were set on riches and the things of the world. So, God came down and appeared to Smith in order to (1) forgive him of his sins and (2) call him as the new prophet to the Christian world. This falls right in line with Book of Mormon prophecy and also how the churches of the last days had fallen away because of wickedness but not because they taught false concepts of God. Nothing in the Book of Mormon or the 1832 account of the First Vision leads anyone to believe that Christendom had a false concept of the Trinitarian God of the Bible! This is key to linking Book of Mormon prophecy to the restoration. It was a simple matter of the Christian church having fallen away -- hearts set on riches and the vain things of the world rather than on God. The Book of Mormon never condemns the theological doctrines of who or what God is as taught by the churches in the last days. True, it does mention plain and precious things having been taken away from scripture but not in matters concerning the very character of who God is. This is key in understanding the difference between the Trinitarian First Vision experience verses the plurality of Gods First Vision experience.

The single most important message of the 1832 account is that there was a falling away and an apostasy of Christendom because of the hearts of the people. Conversely, the single most important message of the later versions is that God and Christ are two separate persons having bodies which is something the Christian churches of the last days fail to understand! But as it was, the latter versions are not supported by context in the Book of Mormon or match the original purpose of the vision given in the 1832 account. I find all this to be absolutely stunning and a game changer in understanding the connection of the First Vision with Book of Mormon prophecy. It is no longer business as usual for the apologists!

Dude, you are fully armed and are ready to roast the First Vision and Church apologists in a way it’s never been done before. Things will never be the same for the LDS church again. It’s no longer business as usual for the apologists. They are now having to face Shulem through the presentations of the Backyard Professor along with other podcasters who are dismantling Mormonism before our very eyes. I predict the very faith of General Authorities will be shaken as they quake and tremble and seek answers to questions that challenge their faith. Critical and advanced analysis of Mormon truth claims is being taken to new levels.
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Shulem
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The Backyard Professor Strikes Again!

Post by Shulem »

Touchdown!

Backyard Professor: 126: Getting Clear on Joseph Smith's First Vision

Joseph Smith’s fraudulent testimony of the First Vision has been challenged to the point there is no logical or reasonable way to defend it from critical expose. The single most important truth claim in which the entire Church rests its case has vaporized into nothingness.

It’s over for Mormonism. The Church is NOT true. I lift my hands up to defy it with power and testimony!

I rebuke the Church. I rebuke its leaders. There was no First Vision experience any more than there is a King’s name in the hieroglyphic writing of the label in Facsimile No. 3. It’s all lies, I so testify.

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Philo Sofee
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Philo Sofee »

Thanks man. That was a delight to do and share slides on. That is one that needs to be a visual, so it works better that way. I am really enjoying being able to produce the slides as they help move the narrative along and improve the learning experience of the watchers of the show.
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Shulem
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:47 pm
Thanks man. That was a delight to do and share slides on. That is one that needs to be a visual, so it works better that way. I am really enjoying being able to produce the slides as they help move the narrative along and improve the learning experience of the watchers of the show.

It’s very fulfilling to be able to approach these matters from a nonfaithful point of view without having to defend our testimonies and the Church from a limited point of view in which apologists are stuck. We have the whole panorama before us and can express the negative aspects of Smith’s fraud without fear of punishment. The apologists are boxed in and surrounded. What an awful situation to be in. Defending the First Vision is hopeless.
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Wonhyo
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Wonhyo »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:57 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:47 pm
Thanks man. That was a delight to do and share slides on. That is one that needs to be a visual, so it works better that way. I am really enjoying being able to produce the slides as they help move the narrative along and improve the learning experience of the watchers of the show.

It’s very fulfilling to be able to approach these matters from a nonfaithful point of view without having to defend our testimonies and the Church from a limited point of view in which apologists are stuck. We have the whole panorama before us and can express the negative aspects of Smith’s fraud without fear of punishment. The apologists are boxed in and surrounded. What an awful situation to be in. Defending the First Vision is hopeless.
Shulem, I've really enjoyed this thread on the First Vision. I don't have much to add to it except my own perspective as a Mormon who, for years, struggled to make sense of this and many other issues. But, it just isn't possible anymore - unless one is willing to let embellishment and fiction form the bedrock of their convictions.

Letting go of the horrifically redacted schoolbook version of this event was, for me, a major step in healing from the wounds that Mormonism invisibly inflicts.
"There is no path to happiness. Happiness is the path.”
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Shulem
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Shulem »

Wonhyo wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:50 pm
Shulem, I've really enjoyed this thread on the First Vision. I don't have much to add to it except my own perspective as a Mormon who, for years, struggled to make sense of this and many other issues. But, it just isn't possible anymore - unless one is willing to let embellishment and fiction form the bedrock of their convictions.

Letting go of the horrifically redacted schoolbook version of this event was, for me, a major step in healing from the wounds that Mormonism invisibly inflicts.

Wonhyo,

I sincerely thank you for letting me know you enjoyed this thread and recognize the value of the content. I completely understand how Mormonism causes wounds because it messes with our minds in brainwashing us to become stupid and obedient servants of the Church.

Anyway, I want to thank the Backyard Professor for picking up the ball and running with it on his podcast. I want to thank everyone who has read this thread and appreciated it for what it is. And for those who don’t, that’s fine with me. But at least I’ve made my presentation clear and showcased Smith’s own words to prove he was not what he claimed to be. That I know. I know it with every fiber of my being and with all my intelligence and all my heart.

Amen.

PS. Mormonism today and the Church as presently constituted is the farthest thing from what was in Smith’s mind and is contrary to all his prophecies. Mormonism today is nothing more than leftovers. Smith wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole.
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Wonhyo
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Wonhyo »

What if a camera had been recording the First Vision, or any of Moroni's visits? What would the footage show us?

For years, I would have assumed that the footage would show us exactly what Joseph Smith recorded in 1838, now canonized in the Pearl of Great Price. In fact, I used to wonder why we called it the First Vision and not the First Visitation...

Now, thanks in large part to Shulem, the Backyard Professor, and Dan Vogel, I understand that if we had video footage of the event, we would see nothing but Joseph (if even that), alone in the forest (if even that), quietly sitting and perhaps meditating or foraging for 'shrooms.
"There is no path to happiness. Happiness is the path.”
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Shulem
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Shulem »

Wonhyo wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:06 pm
What if a camera had been recording the First Vision, or any of Moroni's visits? What would the footage show us?

For years, I would have assumed that the footage would show us exactly what Joseph Smith recorded in 1838, now canonized in the Pearl of Great Price. In fact, I used to wonder why we called it the First Vision and not the First Visitation...

Now, thanks in large part to Shulem, the Backyard Professor, and Dan Vogel, I understand that if we had video footage of the event, we would see nothing but Joseph (if even that), alone in the forest (if even that), quietly sitting and perhaps meditating or foraging for 'shrooms.

U Got it, spot on.

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Moksha
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Re: The First Vision

Post by Moksha »

Wonhyo wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:06 pm
I understand that if we had video footage of the event, we would see nothing but Joseph (if even that), alone in the forest (if even that), quietly sitting and perhaps meditating or foraging for 'shrooms.
I'm still waiting for clips of Thoreau trekking to Walden Pond with thoughts of living deliberately.
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