But Joseph USED those goofy GAEL words

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Hagoth
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But Joseph USED those goofy GAEL words

Post by Hagoth »

I finished Vogel’s new book. It’s very persuasive and, in my opinion, makes it pretty pointless to argue that there’s anything to the SDI (“scribes did it”) hypothesis, regarding the GAEL and alphabets.

But that entire argument is kind of unnecessary when you consider that Joseph himself used the goofy Egyptian words that came from those sources. Even if you accept the SDI excuse you can’t escape the reality that the wacky pretend-Egyptian words had to have come from Joseph Smith anyway.

Just as a reminder, those words include such classic knee-slappers as:
Zub zool - The first born
Zi oop hah - A young virgin
Hoe oop hah phat heh - Patriarchal government
Zab zoal - From the beginning
Phah ho e oop - A king who has universal dominion
Zip zi - Women
Tish Zi hoe oop sater: The glory of the Celestial Kingdom

How do we know that Joseph was down with the goofy Egyptian words from the Abraham papers? Because he used them. The Book of Abraham Gospel Topics essay says, “The word translation typically assumes an expert knowledge of multiple languages. Joseph Smith claimed no expertise in any language.” I don’t know where they get that impression. In fact, there are a number of examples of Joseph boasting about his ability to speak and understand many languages, including Egyptian. Here is one example:

“Were I a Chaldean I would exclaim, Keed'nauh to-me-roon lehoam elauhayauh dey - ahemayana veh aur'hau lau gnaubadoo, yabadoo ma-ar'gnau comeen tehoat sheamyauh allah (Thus shall ye say unto them: The gods that have not made the heaven and the earth, they shall perish from the earth, and from these heavens.) An Egyptian, Su-e-eh-ni (What other persons are those?) A Grecian, Diabolos basileuei (The Devil reigns.) A Frenchman, Messieurs sans Dieu (Gentlemen without God.) . . .”(The Voice of Truth published by Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, 1844) Joseph goes on, quoting phrases of Turkish, German, Syrian, Spanish, Italian, Hebrew, Danish, Latin, and other languages.

Here’s another example:

Were I an Egyptian, I would exclaim Jah-oh-eh, Enish-go-on-dosh, Flo-ees-Flos-is-is; [O the earth! the power of attraction, and the moon passing between her and the sun.]” (Times and Seasons, November 13, 1843, Joseph Smith, editor)

And another:

“I have now preached a little Latin, a little Hebrew, Greek, and German; and I have fulfilled all. I am not so big a fool as many have taken me to be. The Germans know that I read the German correctly.” (Joseph Smith, King Follett Discourse)

So, despite the apologetic claims, Joseph went to a lot of effort to make people believe he was a master translator of all languages, including ancient Egyptian.

Is there a reasonable apologetic response to where the scribes got those words and why Joseph referenced them as proof of his translating powers?
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Moksha
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Re: But Joseph USED those goofy GAEL words

Post by Moksha »

Walt Disney saw it long ago in the Aegean: Zippity Do Da, Zippity Aae. If only Shakespeare had access to Reformed Egyptian, Duke Nukem the Final Solution would have come to fruition.

Wasn't Zub Zool mentioned in Ghostbusters? How could Joseph Smith have known this?!!!
Is there a reasonable apologetic response to where the scribes got those words and why Joseph referenced them as proof of his translating powers?
Most likely Shulem or Kerry would know this.
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Hagoth
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Re: But Joseph USED those goofy GAEL words

Post by Hagoth »

I'm thinking that Joseph was miraculously prophesying 20th century jazz scat singing.

Imagine this in the voice of Louis Armstrong: "Zub zool Zi oop hah Hoe oop hah phat heh Zab zoal Phah ho e oop Zip zi Tish Zi hoe oop sater"
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President Smith and his Minions

Post by Shulem »

The Office of President Joseph Smith produced some of the most ridiculous linguistic claims ever presented or considered as authentic works of historic origin. President Joseph Smith presided over the entire Church and when he set his pen to paper or dictated words of a foreign nature you can be assured that he did it on his authority and with the claim that it was divinely inspired. His assistants obeyed him and were called to the work to act as recorders and scribes. But the author was Joseph Smith who was the TRANSLATOR-SEER-REVELATOR of the Church and no one else was given that title or responsibility. It fell upon Joseph Smith the prophet who alone could reveal ancient languages in which his scribes recorded under his direction. Do not let apologists ever tell you otherwise because they misrepresent the prophet in order to conceal embarrassments he produced. Apologists are really nothing more than apostates who masquerade as faithful representatives of Smith’s word. On the other hand, critics such as myself, faithfully represent Joseph Smith for what he said and claimed.

Strange names in the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are all part of the hoax produced by Joseph Smith in fooling people into thinking he was restoring ancient history when in fact he was not. Joseph Smith couldn’t read Egyptian or understand Egyptian iconography on a basic level. His revelations on ancient Egypt are lies in which he produced to satisfy his ego. But that is all water under the bridge now and we see it for what it was.
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Hagoth
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Re: President Smith and his Minions

Post by Hagoth »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:22 pm
Strange names in the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are all part of the hoax produced by Joseph Smith in fooling people into thinking he was restoring ancient history when in fact he was not.
Here's one simple question that makes that very apparent while also completely destroying both the Long Scroll and Scribes Did It theories: If they were trying to backwards-engineer Joseph's translation, why did the scribes ignore the long scroll and use the Hor Book of Breathings characters instead?

How stupid were these guys to sit side-by-side with Joseph translating the Book of Abraham from the supposed actual scroll AND THEN set that scroll aside and try to translate it from an entirely different piece of papyrus? WT everloving H (H stands for Heck).
Last edited by Hagoth on Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: President Smith and his Minions

Post by Shulem »

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:55 pm
Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:22 pm
Strange names in the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham are all part of the hoax produced by Joseph Smith in fooling people into thinking he was restoring ancient history when in fact he was not.
Here's one simple question that makes that very apparent while also completely destroying both the Long Scroll and Scribes Did It theories: If they were trying to backwards-engineer Joseph's translation, why did the scribes ignore the long scroll and use the Hor Book of Breathings characters instead?

How stupid were these guys to sit side-by-side with Joseph translating the Book of Abraham from the supposed actual scroll AND THEN set that scroll aside and try to translate it from an entirely different piece of papyrus?

The reverse engineering theory or as you call it “backwards-engineer” is counter productive and seems to work outside the bounds of direct revelation. You see, Smith wrote and dictated using direct revelation from God. That is how he translated and performed all his revelations whether orally or by his own pen. There never was a time when Smith needed to reverse engineer or go back on his own words as if to prove them! Smith was ever moving forward and could do it on a dime, instantly. There was no need to go back and reinvent or re-engineer his revelations -- doing so is indicative of admitting that revelation ceased and the way forward was interrupted. Jesus said, “No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God” and therefore if Joseph Smith was plowing his translations by looking back trying to figure out what he had done then it goes to show he was only looking back rather than moving forward with confidence in plowing additional revelation which would have been additional translations.
Last edited by Shulem on Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Hagoth
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Re: President Smith and his Minions

Post by Hagoth »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:40 pm
...if Joseph Smith was plowing his translations by looking back trying to figure out what he had done then it goes to show he was only looking back rather than moving forward with confidence in plowing additional revelation which would have been additional translations.
Of course, it would make no sense at all to have Joseph himself involved in the reverse-engineering project, which is why Alphabet-A seems all the more bizarre withing the Scribes Did It hypothesis. I guess an option would be for a hybrid-catalyst theory where Joseph received the revelation and then wondered where it came from, somehow forgot about the long scroll, and struggled alongside his scribes to figure out the source material using the wrong papyrus. But who needs an even more convoluted downward spiral of cluelessness?

Ultimately, all we have is the catalyst theory, but I can't find any way to significantly differentiate that from the He Made It Up theory. At least the He Made It Up theory explains how he got everything so wrong - he made it up! The catalyst theory shifts all of the blame to God, so we have to blame Him for not knowing better. Maybe God was getting his ideas from Adam Clarke and George Oliver too.
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Re: President Smith and his Minions

Post by Shulem »

Thanks for making that edit.

;)
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Re: But Joseph USED those goofy GAEL words

Post by Moksha »

Could the Church advance the Royal Skousen claim of a Ghost Committee consisting of bards from the 16th Century who sit all day at a pub in London and through some spiritual portal, they were able to feed information straight to Joseph Smith's seer stone? That would help solve the mystery of the cat screams and somebody with a cockney accent repeating "number nine".
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Re: President Smith and his Minions

Post by Philo Sofee »

Hagoth wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:29 pm
Shulem wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:40 pm
...if Joseph Smith was plowing his translations by looking back trying to figure out what he had done then it goes to show he was only looking back rather than moving forward with confidence in plowing additional revelation which would have been additional translations.
Of course, it would make no sense at all to have Joseph himself involved in the reverse-engineering project, which is why Alphabet-A seems all the more bizarre withing the Scribes Did It hypothesis. I guess an option would be for a hybrid-catalyst theory where Joseph received the revelation and then wondered where it came from, somehow forgot about the long scroll, and struggled alongside his scribes to figure out the source material using the wrong papyrus. But who needs an even more convoluted downward spiral of cluelessness?

Ultimately, all we have is the catalyst theory, but I can't find any way to significantly differentiate that from the He Made It Up theory. At least the He Made It Up theory explains how he got everything so wrong - he made it up! The catalyst theory shifts all of the blame to God, so we have to blame Him for not knowing better. Maybe God was getting his ideas from Adam Clarke and George Oliver too.
Great to see you Hagoth! Yes, I have arrived at that conclusion that this puts it on God now, something which ought to make ALL Mormons cringe...
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