The Quincy Account

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Philo Sofee
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Philo Sofee »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:37 pm
Ryan Larsen wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:10 pm


That would be Backyard Professor
:lol: :lol: :lol: i should have known that, my apologies, philo!!!!
No worries! It is easier to type BYP than The Backyard Professor, so folks call me BYP as well...
Ryan Larsen
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Ryan Larsen »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:57 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:37 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: i should have known that, my apologies, philo!!!!
No worries! It is easier to type BYP than The Backyard Professor, so folks call me BYP as well...
Great show tonight Philo! You raise a very interesting point. I think once you’ve read the fourth and fifth of my meditations on Vogel, you’ll understand my theory and it will be easier to discuss how our views align and how they differ. Love ya my friend!!
Father Francis
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Father Francis »

Ryan Larsen wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 10:19 pm
I added the following Bayesian aids to the OP:

Why would Joseph tell Quincy things which contradicted the consistent narrative he told others?

Especially in front of his mom? And in reference to things which townspeople could have easily contradicted if Quincy had spoken with them?

Would that not put Joseph’s narrative in jeopardy?

Are we to believe he did not know, or did not care that he was putting his narrative in jeopardy?

If Joseph did indeed say those things, it would make sense if he was joking around and jovial, in which case the statements should not reflect his actual claims about Abraham.
A personality disorder could explain all of these things. Sounds like borderline behavior to me.
Philo Sofee
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Philo Sofee »

Ryan Larsen wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:37 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat Mar 12, 2022 10:57 pm


No worries! It is easier to type BYP than The Backyard Professor, so folks call me BYP as well...
Great show tonight Philo! You raise a very interesting point. I think once you’ve read the fourth and fifth of my meditations on Vogel, you’ll understand my theory and it will be easier to discuss how our views align and how they differ. Love ya my friend!!
I will do so this week! I am not ignorin ya, just need to get you on the priority list, which is what I am doing right now, so yer stuff is up next. Thanks for showing up and chatting also! I think a LOT of folks enjoy having you and talking. Sometimes it can get rough and tumble, but overall the audience is the cream of the crop, you along with that. I so enjoy a good banter. I took too long to get to the point again - sigh! I gotta work on that. I was happy to give Kevin Graham a plug and show how he used the papyri in his answers. Graham was the gent who thrashed Will Schryver's encryption theory of the papyri. Graham still posts in the Spirit Paradise part of the forum, but has lost interest in the Papyri. Can't blame him, in some ways he got to the rock bottom and saw no more point to arguing with Gee who simply won't change no matter if an angel with a flaming sword showed up with papyri. :D
Ryan Larsen
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Ryan Larsen »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 12:55 pm
Ryan Larsen wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 4:37 am


Great show tonight Philo! You raise a very interesting point. I think once you’ve read the fourth and fifth of my meditations on Vogel, you’ll understand my theory and it will be easier to discuss how our views align and how they differ. Love ya my friend!!
I will do so this week! I am not ignorin ya, just need to get you on the priority list, which is what I am doing right now, so yer stuff is up next. Thanks for showing up and chatting also! I think a LOT of folks enjoy having you and talking. Sometimes it can get rough and tumble, but overall the audience is the cream of the crop, you along with that. I so enjoy a good banter. I took too long to get to the point again - sigh! I gotta work on that. I was happy to give Kevin Graham a plug and show how he used the papyri in his answers. Graham was the gent who thrashed Will Schryver's encryption theory of the papyri. Graham still posts in the Spirit Paradise part of the forum, but has lost interest in the Papyri. Can't blame him, in some ways he got to the rock bottom and saw no more point to arguing with Gee who simply won't change no matter if an angel with a flaming sword showed up with papyri. :D
Haha well sometimes it’s okay to take a while to get to the point - I said in the live chat that you are expert level at building anticipation!

And the crux of your argument, if I understand it correctly, is certainly very interesting. My theory is probably more resistant to it than Gee’s theory is, but I’m open to being challenged.
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Physics Guy
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Physics Guy »

"Autograph" as used by Quincy or Smith probably did not mean a signature. The word can also technically mean anything which someone hand-wrote personally, not just their own name. In fact I think that would have been the most common meaning of "autograph" at the time, which was a long time before celebrities started signing things for fans.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
Philo Sofee
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Philo Sofee »

Physics Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:39 pm
"Autograph" as used by Quincy or Smith probably did not mean a signature. The word can also technically mean anything which someone hand-wrote personally, not just their own name. In fact I think that would have been the most common meaning of "autograph" at the time, which was a long time before celebrities started signing things for fans.
I am going to check into this. Never thought of that angle, and it could be helpful, thank PG
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Shulem
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:44 pm
Physics Guy wrote:
Mon Mar 14, 2022 9:39 pm
"Autograph" as used by Quincy or Smith probably did not mean a signature. The word can also technically mean anything which someone hand-wrote personally, not just their own name. In fact I think that would have been the most common meaning of "autograph" at the time, which was a long time before celebrities started signing things for fans.
I am going to check into this. Never thought of that angle, and it could be helpful, thank PG

The Webster 1828 Dictionary is not functioning at this time. I seem to recall the words signature and autograph have pretty much the same meaning then as it does today in modern times. Wikipedia provides excellent definitions for both words to include their historical and root meanings as well as the application.

Signature
Autograph


Do recall that the eyewitness testimony credits the original claim was that the character on the papyrus was the signature of Abraham and the reply from Quincy was that it was an interesting autograph. I think signature and autograph can be used somewhat interchangeably but autograph is more of a reference to the handwriting of the entire document of the original author. Signature is a reference to the person’s actual name in handwritten form.

The papyrus roll was purported to be written by the hand of Abraham containing a personal account of the patriarch himself and his personal ministry. It details the expressions and thoughts of the man himself to include his feelings and state of mind. It is in effect an autograph or an autobiography of Abraham’s experiences that could only be expressed by his own telling with pen in hand. And that is exactly what Joseph Smith claimed the record was, a personal account written by Abraham and preserved for some 3,500 years.

I mentioned earlier that every time Abraham penned his name in the record it was in effect his signature or a personal autograph of his name. Imagine having a papyrus roll containing the autobiography of Abraham written by his own hand and recognizing the name “Abraham” found in the story 21 times. How cool would that be? I think this sums up the idea that the Mormons believed Abraham’s name was on the papyrus and that it was considered his signature or autograph because he penned it 3,500 years ago!
Philo Sofee
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Philo Sofee »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:21 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 12:44 pm


I am going to check into this. Never thought of that angle, and it could be helpful, thank PG

The Webster 1828 Dictionary is not functioning at this time. I seem to recall the words signature and autograph have pretty much the same meaning then as it does today in modern times. Wikipedia provides excellent definitions for both words to include their historical and root meanings as well as the application.

Signature
Autograph


Do recall that the eyewitness testimony credits the original claim was that the character on the papyrus was the signature of Abraham and the reply from Quincy was that it was an interesting autograph. I think signature and autograph can be used somewhat interchangeably but autograph is more of a reference to the handwriting of the entire document of the original author. Signature is a reference to the person’s actual name in handwritten form.

The papyrus roll was purported to be written by the hand of Abraham containing a personal account of the patriarch himself and his personal ministry. It details the expressions and thoughts of the man himself to include his feelings and state of mind. It is in effect an autograph or an autobiography of Abraham’s experiences that could only be expressed by his own telling with pen in hand. And that is exactly what Joseph Smith claimed the record was, a personal account written by Abraham and preserved for some 3,500 years.

I mentioned earlier that every time Abraham penned his name in the record it was in effect his signature or a personal autograph of his name. Imagine having a papyrus roll containing the autobiography of Abraham written by his own hand and recognizing the name “Abraham” found in the story 21 times. How cool would that be? I think this sums up the idea that the Mormons believed Abraham’s name was on the papyrus and that it was considered his signature or autograph because he penned it 3,500 years ago!
I just read Muhlestein's attempt to get past this hurdle in the Joseph Smith saga of biblicizing the papyri. I am not impressed. Muhlestein is in my cross hairs, I just have to finish mopping the floor with Gee this Sunday and Kerry is next, and then to a useful discussion on Ryan Larsen's ideas... Muhlestein and Gee could take lessons from Larsen, his honesty and looking into things is stellar. I don't think they are going to deliver on what he is hoping for, but his approach is a breath of fresh air compared to how ridiculously weird the "professional" apologetic has become this last decade.
Ryan Larsen
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Ryan Larsen »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:58 pm
Shulem wrote:
Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:21 pm



The Webster 1828 Dictionary is not functioning at this time. I seem to recall the words signature and autograph have pretty much the same meaning then as it does today in modern times. Wikipedia provides excellent definitions for both words to include their historical and root meanings as well as the application.

Signature
Autograph


Do recall that the eyewitness testimony credits the original claim was that the character on the papyrus was the signature of Abraham and the reply from Quincy was that it was an interesting autograph. I think signature and autograph can be used somewhat interchangeably but autograph is more of a reference to the handwriting of the entire document of the original author. Signature is a reference to the person’s actual name in handwritten form.

The papyrus roll was purported to be written by the hand of Abraham containing a personal account of the patriarch himself and his personal ministry. It details the expressions and thoughts of the man himself to include his feelings and state of mind. It is in effect an autograph or an autobiography of Abraham’s experiences that could only be expressed by his own telling with pen in hand. And that is exactly what Joseph Smith claimed the record was, a personal account written by Abraham and preserved for some 3,500 years.

I mentioned earlier that every time Abraham penned his name in the record it was in effect his signature or a personal autograph of his name. Imagine having a papyrus roll containing the autobiography of Abraham written by his own hand and recognizing the name “Abraham” found in the story 21 times. How cool would that be? I think this sums up the idea that the Mormons believed Abraham’s name was on the papyrus and that it was considered his signature or autograph because he penned it 3,500 years ago!
I just read Muhlestein's attempt to get past this hurdle in the Joseph Smith saga of biblicizing the papyri. I am not impressed. Muhlestein is in my cross hairs, I just have to finish mopping the floor with Gee this Sunday and Kerry is next, and then to a useful discussion on Ryan Larsen's ideas... Muhlestein and Gee could take lessons from Larsen, his honesty and looking into things is stellar. I don't think they are going to deliver on what he is hoping for, but his approach is a breath of fresh air compared to how ridiculously weird the "professional" apologetic has become this last decade.
Thank you so very much, that means a lot. And if anything I write ever seems “off” I’m of course willing to discuss it and get to the bottom of things. I think the key is that exchange of ideas and having feedback/pushback. Echo chambers don’t help anything, on either side 😊
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