The Quincy Account

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Doctor Steuss
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Re: The Quincy Account

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For whatever it may be worth in the conversation, in a search of BOAP's Early Saints archive of journals, the word "Autograph" appears only once. It is from Josiah Quincy.

BYU's missionary journal archive turns up 16 journals with the word. I didn't search through all of them to see how it was used, as they all appear to be written in the late 1800's through early 1900s -- likely too late to be of any relevance. The four I did look at used the term in the signature sense, and not in the holy writ manuscript sense.
Ryan Larsen
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Re: The Quincy Account

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Doctor Steuss wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:27 pm
For whatever it may be worth in the conversation, in a search of BOAP's Early Saints archive of journals, the word "Autograph" appears only once. It is from Josiah Quincy.

BYU's missionary journal archive turns up 16 journals with the word. I didn't search through all of them to see how it was used, as they all appear to be written in the late 1800's through early 1900s -- likely too late to be of any relevance. The four I did look at used the term in the signature sense, and not in the holy writ manuscript sense.
Interesting, thank you. It doesn’t strike me as a word Joseph Smith would usually use. In the link to my blog, in the opening post, I break down the 1828 Websters definitions (not in the Quincy part of the post, but further down).
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: The Quincy Account

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Ryan Larsen wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:30 pm
Interesting, thank you. It doesn’t strike me as a word Joseph Smith would usually use. In the link to my blog, in the opening post, I break down the 1828 Websters definitions (not in the Quincy part of the post, but further down).
You are very welcome. I wish I could be more involved in this conversation, but all of you are way over my head.

I tried finding what exactly Quincy IV’s education entailed, and if it included theological training at all (where the term “autograph” for ancient scripture manuscript would likely have become common parlance for him). The only stuff out there that I can find detail wise is on Quincy III’s education -- who seems to have been resistant to the religious aspects.
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Ryan Larsen »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:53 pm
Ryan Larsen wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 6:30 pm
Interesting, thank you. It doesn’t strike me as a word Joseph Smith would usually use. In the link to my blog, in the opening post, I break down the 1828 Websters definitions (not in the Quincy part of the post, but further down).
You are very welcome. I wish I could be more involved in this conversation, but all of you are way over my head.

I tried finding what exactly Quincy IV’s education entailed, and if it included theological training at all (where the term “autograph” for ancient scripture manuscript would likely have become common parlance for him). The only stuff out there that I can find detail wise is on Quincy III’s education -- who seems to have been resistant to the religious aspects.
Also very interesting. And don’t sell yourself short - every data point counts!
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Re: The Quincy Account

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April 14th was Noah Webster's birthday and their server is still down for the 1828 Dictionary. I tend to think they are making some improvements or changes.

I really want to see those full definitions. I think it will be telling.
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Noah Webster 1828

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In the meantime, I will pull up some 1828 Webster information from my website noted in my own signature below. Now that's ironic. I should have done that earlier. Sorry.

Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I, II, III wrote:
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Noah Webster 1828

AUTOGRAPH adjective Pertaining to an autograph or one's own hand writing.

SIGNATURE, noun [Latin signo, to sign.] Sign manual; the name of a person written or subscribed by himself.

Authentic example of an autograph or signature:

Image

Joseph Smith Jr.
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Signature

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While publishing the Book of Abraham in the Times and Seasons the prophet makes it crystal clear that his personal signature vouches that he approves the edition as chief editor. If his name (signature) is not therein then he is not responsible for the publication, period. Could not the same be said for the Abrahamic papyrus in which Joseph Smith said Abraham signed?


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A temple record containing the signatures of the faithful is like a Book of Life recorded on earth as it is in heaven.

TIMES AND SEASONS. CITY OF NAUVOO, SATURDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1842. wrote:
LETTER FROM JOSEPH SMITH.
Nauvoo, September 6, 1842.
To the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, sendeth Greeting:—
As I stated to you in my letter before I left my place, that I would write to you from time to time, and give you information in relation to many subjects, I now resume the subject of the baptism for the dead; as that subject seems to occupy my mind, and press itself upon my feelings the strongest, since I have been pursued by my enemies.
I wrote a few words of Revelation to you concerning a Recorder. I have had a few additional views in relation to this matter, which I now certify. That is, it was declared in my former letter that there should be a Recorder, who should be eye-witness, and also to hear with his ears, that he might make a record of a truth before the Lord. Now, in relation to this matter, it would be very difficult for one recorder to be present at all times, and to do all the business. To obviate this difficulty, there can be a recorder appointed in each ward of the city, who is well qualified for taking accurate minutes; and let him be very particular and precise in making his record, in taking the whole proceedings; certifying in his record that he saw with his eyes, and heard with his ears; giving the date, and names, &c., and the history of the whole transaction; naming also, some three individuals that are present, if there be any present, who can at any time when called upon, certify to the same, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Then let there be a general Recorder, to whom these other records can be handed, being attended with certificates over their own signatures; certifying that the record which they have made is true. Then the general church recorder can enter the record on the general church book, with the certificates and all the attending witnesses, with his own statement that he verily believes the above statement and records to be true, from his knowledge of the general character and appointment of those men by the church. And when this is done on the general church book, the record shall be just as holy, and shall answer the ordinance just the same as if he had seen with his eyes, and heard with his ears, and made a record of the same on the general church book.

It could be said that a signature was very important to the prophet Joseph Smith and that a signature certifies that a person is represented within the deed being performed such as baptism for the dead. Likewise, it could be said that Abraham’s signature on the papyrus certified that he was the author of that work and penned his name (autograph) with his own hand.


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Signature

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THE NEW AND COMPLETE DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BY JOHN ASH (1775) wrote:
SIG'NATURE (s. from the Lat. signo to sign) A stamp, a mark; a name written; a letter or mark to distinguish one thing from another; a sign, a type, a token.

According to Josiah Quincy, the scroll in Smith’s possession had Abraham’s own stamp of approval, his personal signature. Albeit a sign or a token or whatnot, Joseph Smith claimed that it was Abraham’s personal story written by his own hand. Therefore, it bears his seal or name.

All seems to be in order.
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Re: The Quincy Account

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THE NEW AND COMPLETE DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BY JOHN ASH (1795) wrote:
AUTO'GRAPHY (s. from the Greek αὐτός one's self, and to γράφω write) A person's own handwriting, the original manuscript of any book.

Again, everything seems to be in order in using the word autograph in conjunction with signature. It all fits just fine and shows merit. I trust that Josiah Quincy was well educated and used words appropriately. There is no reason whatsoever to discount his testimonial. It seems a clear case for prime evidence in showing that Joseph Smith told others that the signature or autograph of the patriarch Abraham and others were on the sacred papyri that was passed down from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph and presumably perhaps even Moses.

I’m afraid that Ryan’s objections are unwarranted and are shown to be ineffective in discrediting Quincy’s testimony.

Do you agree with that, Philo? Anyone?
Ryan Larsen
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Re: The Quincy Account

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Shulem wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:55 pm

Again, everything seems to be in order in using the word autograph in conjunction with signature. It all fits just fine and shows merit. I trust that Josiah Quincy was well educated and used words appropriately. There is no reason whatsoever to discount his testimonial. It seems a clear case for prime evidence in showing that Joseph Smith told others that the signature or autograph of the patriarch Abraham and others were on the sacred papyri that was passed down from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph and presumably perhaps even Moses.

I’m afraid that Ryan’s objections are unwarranted and are shown to be ineffective in discrediting Quincy’s testimony.

Do you agree with that, Philo? Anyone?
We don’t have Quincy’s testimony. We have an account written decades later by an unknown person, based (to an unknown extent) on things Quincy wrote.

There’s no way of extracting what Quincy actually said. You can still choose to believe what we have, but at best it is something Quincy signed off on shortly before he died, when he was very old and memories were far from fresh.

Anyone can believe what they want to believe, but I haven’t heard any logical reason as to why Quincy’s actual journals and letters from the time would not have been a better source of information. If you agree with me that they would be a better source of information, then we are in agreement that the “Quincy account” is not as reliable as we might have expected.
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