The Quincy Account

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Shulem
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Shulem »

Ryan Larsen wrote: Are the “ravings of a lunatic” significant enough to remember word-for-word? He even compared Smith to inmates at an insane asylum: “victims of the sad but not uncommon delusion that each had received the appointment of vicegerent of the Deity upon earth." Quincy does not seem to hold this against Smith personally. but rather is taking pity on him while at the same time marveling that such a man could accomplish all that Joseph Smith had accomplished.

I think the President of the finest university of the United of America can remember the word for word ravings of a lunatic and report them accurately. I have no reason, whatsoever, to discount the accounting of Josiah Quincy taken from his personal records. I’m confident that the testimonial therein is accurate and correct.
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Re: The Quincy Account

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Ryan Larsen wrote: Moreover, Quincy’s journal entry is less reliable because it was apparently rewritten decades later to make it more suitable for publication.

In his introduction, Quincy states:
... a friend, who had read my journals with interest, offered me his most valuable aid in what may be called the literary responsibilities of the undertaking. My narratives have gained in grace of expression as they passed beneath the correcting pen of my obliging critic, and I am confident that a stern exercise of his right of curtailing reflections and omitting incidents has been no less for the reader's advantage.

Aesthetics and suitability is not a substitute for accuracy or a replacement of the original content. It’s used to better express and describe the original statement and express it in a manner more conducive to the audience. If anything, the extra work in making the material suitable makes it more reliable.
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Shulem
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Re: The Quincy Account

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Ryan Larsen wrote:This may help explain why the name “Onitas,” which other witnesses consistently identified as the name of the male mummy, does not appear but is replaced with the name of Pharaoh Necho. We might note that “O” and “N” are the most prominently pronounced sounds in both names, which may have either prompted a change geared more toward the interest of the audience, or may have caused Quincy to incorrectly recall. In any event, no other account has Joseph speaking and behaving the way he is depicted in this account.

Interesting point, I hear ya!

1. Onitas/Onitah
2. Necho

The whole is thing rather confusing, I agree. It’s difficult to put this together and know what Joseph Smith, his companions, and his mother may have said to Quincy and the pretenses of the personal royal pronoun. I think we can both agree that the king-mummy aspect is rather bizarre. But, I will take Quincy at his word and if he says Joseph said “Necho” then so be it. At this point I can imagine Smith saying practically anything or any name in order to make a case. Names like:

Katumin
Olimlah
Shulem
Pharaoh


etc.
Ryan Larsen
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Ryan Larsen »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:54 pm
Smith was more than honored to have a former congressman, former mayor of the city of Boston, and the current President of one of the most prestigious universities America would ever produce, HARVARD.
Shulem wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:54 pm
Quincy was an educator of the highest caliber and I cannot imagine his personal writings being anything less than that. I have to think that what he wrote in his personal journal was from his mind and heart combined and that his letters were astute and perfectly written as would be expected from the President of America’s greatest university.
Shulem wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:54 pm
He was the President of the finest university in the United States of America. And you question his ability to remember to accurately write down his testimonial in the most sacred of all writings, his personal journal? You question that? That is way off base on your part, sir. You have no right to question Quincy’s ability to recall and accurately record his thoughts of what he heard and saw. I submit to you, that you are doing this only to downplay what he said and discredit his testimony as an apologetic trick often employed by Mormon apologists. I seriously wonder if you’d do that if he was your great relative and a highly esteemed ancestor in your family line. I do believe you are discrediting this man in a most unfair manner in questioning his basic intelligence and ability to recall important events in his life.

I think I can see your apologetics quite clearly, Ryan. I don’t like what I see.
Shulem wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:57 pm
The President of America’s finest university not paying attention to details? You have to be kidding me.
Shulem wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:24 pm
I think the President of the finest university of the United of America can remember the word for word ravings of a lunatic and report them accurately
I don't want to make you feel bad, but you're confusing him with his dad. It's a perfectly understandable mistake, and I get them confused sometimes, too.
Shulem wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:49 pm
Doesn’t it make sense that mother Smith is the one that told Quincy the wrong dollar amount and boasting how she owned the papyrus?
Except Quincy claimed Joseph Smith was the one who said they were purchased by her with her own money, etc. (in front of his mother).
Shulem wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 10:57 pm
You have taken your half-baked idea and hastily conclude that the rest of Quincy’s account is probably worth spit because he reported a $6,000 figure and that the mother of the Mormon prophet was the financier which seems reasonable on its face since she is collecting fees.

Ryan, your apologetics is not good.
What I said is that it's not as reliable as we might have expected. That can be determined through Bayesian analysis.

The problem with your responses is that you try to trump new data by using arguments which would already be factored into your priors, coupled with unrealistically high expectations for a human being (Quincy).

I hope you will continue trying to come up with a response to my argument, and I appreciate your interest. I would suggest trying to steel man my argument, quantifying Bayesian priors and trying to objectively determine the significance of each piece of evidence I provide.

Best,

Ryan
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Shulem
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Shulem »

Ryan Larsen wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:41 am
Ryan

How do you spell "SHULEM" in Egyptian, Ryan?

Provide the hieroglyphic characters and the appropriate transliteration, please.

Give me the characters and the accompanying transliteration, please.

1. EGYPTIAN CHARACTERS
2. TRANSLITERATION

Thanks, in advance

Shulem
Last edited by Shulem on Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Quincy Account

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Ryan Larsen wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:09 pm
Moksha wrote:
Wed Mar 09, 2022 4:50 pm
Is it possible that Joseph could be considered a teller of tall tales, with details changing upon the telling, rather than being an accurate historian?
Are you suggesting that, in front of his mom, he told Quincy a different story than he had told her, which she had passed on to many others? And using details which could easily be contradicted by townspeople which Quincy may have decided to chat with?
So did his mom purchase the mummies for $6000? Might he have related other such tales in front of this mom? Did he ever mention the angel with the drawn sword to her?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Shulem
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:16 am
Ryan Larsen wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:41 am
Ryan

How do you spell "SHULEM" in Egyptian, Ryan?

Provide the hieroglyphic characters and the appropriate transliteration, please.

Give me the characters and the accompanying transliteration, please.

1. EGYPTIAN CHARACTERS
2. TRANSLITERATION

Thanks, in advance

Shulem

PROVIDE THE INFORMATION OR CONCEDE THE ARGUMENT.

You lose, I am absolutely sure of that.

FACSIMILE NO. 3 has beaten you.

If not, then kindly provide the name of the Egyptian King's name and the name of the prince.

IF you can't show me that in the the hieroglyphic characters and transliterate them then you CONCEDE the argument and the critics win.

Yes, the critics win.

Shulem
Last edited by Shulem on Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Marcus
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Re: The Quincy Account

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Ryan Larsen wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:41 am
...What I said is that it's not as reliable as we might have expected. That can be determined through Bayesian analysis.
You can't leave a statement like that hanging with this crowd. Can you please provide equations, sources for the probabilities you used, and show us exactly what you determined in your Bayesian approach and how?
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Re: The Quincy Account

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Ryan Larsen wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:41 am
I don't want to make you feel bad, but you're confusing him with his dad. It's a perfectly understandable mistake, and I get them confused sometimes, too.

THANK YOU for the correction because that is an error on my part and one that I’ve fostered for a very long time. I’m so mad at myself for that! So, you’ve been really helpful in getting that set right. I owe you one!

Again, thank you. I stand corrected.

Father and son were much alike so it seems. Both were very much accomplished and intelligent. Quincy Jr. became mayor of Boston a few years after his visit to Nauvoo. For the record:

Josiah Quincy III

Josiah Quincy Jr.



I will however continue to defend young Quincy on the same principle that he was intelligent and probably was as organized as his father seeing they were very similar in their accomplishments. He was in fact the eyewitness to what was reported in Figures of the Past. I think it’s most unfair to discount this testimony as you have done in your critical analysis of finding a way to lesson the impact of what Quincy reported. I find that somewhat upsetting on your part. I’m sure you can understand that so I was quick to point that out.

Anyway, I apologize for not welcoming you to the board earlier. That was rather rude of me. I’ve been running a hundred miles an hour lately.
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Re: The Quincy Account

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 6:26 am
Ryan Larsen wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:41 am
...What I said is that it's not as reliable as we might have expected. That can be determined through Bayesian analysis.
You can't leave a statement like that hanging with this crowd. Can you please provide equations, sources for the probabilities you used, and show us exactly what you determined in your Bayesian approach and how?

Ugh, numbers, numbers. Not my cup of tea. I will have to stand aside.

I wonder if Kerry will make it into this thread?
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