The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

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bill4long
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The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

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The Exodus Never Happened. Change my mind.

Bill
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Moksha
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

Post by Moksha »

bill4long wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:09 am
The Exodus Never Happened. Change my mind.

Bill
Okay, answer this challenge: It was a story added to the Torah after the end of the Babylonian captivity. So there! Try to prove there wasn't a rabbit hole in Watership Down. There have been rabbit holes from Orem to Vladivostok.
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Bret Ripley
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

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Moksha wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:00 am
bill4long wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:09 am
The Exodus Never Happened. Change my mind.

Bill
Okay, answer this challenge: It was a story added to the Torah after the end of the Babylonian captivity. So there! Try to prove there wasn't a rabbit hole in Watership Down. There have been rabbit holes from Orem to Vladivostok.
It's true: rabbit holes are ubiquitous (e.g. "NBC news story on Hunter Biden" in Super Spirit Paradise). I'd like to see Bill try to weasel his way around this.
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

Post by Shulem »

Indeed, the Exodus as recorded in the bible never happened. It is nothing more than a story made to glorify the Israelites and their god. There is no evidence in Egypt to substantiate the claims made in Exodus. It's all lies and that was designed to slander Egypt and praise Jehovah in an effort to popularize the religion of the Jews.
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

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It is possible that a group of people with a religious leader escaped Egypt and settled in the land of Canaan becoming the germ of the story found in Exodus. In Exodus this journey has been given an expanded image so that it represents all Israel and all Israel can imagine themselves as participants. In a sense this participation continues today.

Archeological evidence at this point has been clear that the Canaanites underwent a political upheaval and left some cities to settle more in the hill country. These Canaanites became the primary portion of the people of Israel. The book of Judges gives strong hints of this arrangement which is being clarified by archeology (my reading from William Dever)

I have long had an academic study of the history of Israel from 1973 which at that time still saw primary source of Israelites to have been settling nomads. William Dever rejects this older idea while allowing a maybe for some limited group from Egypt with Moses.

The puzzle I see in the Old Testament is what was the reason or cause for this group of religious believers separating from the Canaanite culture. This separation is historically clear and real. The struggle over the separation is also real. A group leaving Egypt with a religious visionary , Moses could have inspired some of the Canaanites dissatisfied with tradition and past political dependence on Egypt.

If this image of Israelite origin is correct the reason for no evidence in Egypt or the desert is that the actual group was small enough to be of little concern to Egypt and small enough to not leave found traces in the desert.
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

Post by Shulem »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 13, 2022 6:16 pm
It is possible that a group of people with a religious leader escaped Egypt and settled in the land of Canaan becoming the germ of the story found in Exodus.

All of the points you make are really good.

I seem to recall a record in antiquity that referred to a small group of outcasts who left Egypt to settle in Canaan and that is where the legend of Moses originated. They were a "scabby" people. I can't remember where I got that.

But the grand scheme of things as outlined in Exodus is all made up. That never happened. Pharaoh was not drowned in the sea with his armies. That is a lie. The plagues upon Egypt brought upon by an Asiatic rebel whose God punishes all Egypt is fabricated storytelling. It never happened. And, the Book of Mormon which supports it is also wrong.
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

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The principal problem to the small group theory, is there were no noticeable changes to the middens, nor pottery. No dietary changes, no technological changes re - pottery. The in the ground evidence contradicts the exodus, and the invasion of Canaan. The narrative uses place names from the 2nd century bce and other anachronisms.
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

Post by Physics Guy »

Those sound like serious problems for a large group theory, but not so severe for a small.
What if fire is only the first of a million such things?
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

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So there is a chance that Mighty Mouse could have defeated Superman! At least if we suspend the notion that they are fictional characters.
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Re: The Exodus Never Happened - Change My Mind.

Post by huckelberry »

¥akaSteelhead wrote:
Thu Apr 14, 2022 4:45 pm
The principal problem to the small group theory, is there were no noticeable changes to the middens, nor pottery. No dietary changes, no technological changes re - pottery. The in the ground evidence contradicts the exodus, and the invasion of Canaan. The narrative uses place names from the 2nd century bce and other anachronisms.
YakaSteelhead,the small group theory I presented is based upon the observation that though there were changes in population locations the pottery , dietary evidence, technology remained the same. There is no evidence of a significant change in the people. William Dever summarizes by saying Israelites were Canaanites who moved locations and probably made political changes.

The proposed relatively small group from Egypt would be culturally similar if not identical. They could have been importing religious ideas which could have meshed with the changes some in Canaan were looking for. They had been under Egyptian sway and were moving away from that in Canaan, a sympathetic theme.

I had two thoughts about place names. First the compilation and form of the story in Exodus is certainly made centuries after events. Babylonian captivity or shortly after is usually considered a likely time. Second I would think dating a place name a bit inexact. Many names stay the same over long period of time, some for thousands of years.

It is very unlikely a Pharaoh was drowned chasing Israel. It is possible a military contingent representing Pharaoh was. At least as a fragment poetic celebration of such an event is some of the oldest material in the Bible. It is clear that a huge mass of people as noted in Exodus would like leave traces which are absent or not found. A smaller group would be more likely.

I noted that the appearance of a developing religious cult for Israel during the period of kings is historical clear. It was not clearly separate from the Canaanite surrounding but did have conflict with them. What historical realities would be behind this? Why an Elijah? Some sort of more modest version of the Exodus story with an important religious leader fits into this larger pattern of events. That fit does not prove a Moses but it fits and is the received story from the later people.
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