LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

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Elizabeth
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by Elizabeth »

Exodus 20
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... 0?lang=eng


Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.
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Physics Guy
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by Physics Guy »

Shulem wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2022 7:09 pm
Blood atonement is for the forgiveness of sins whether by animal blood, human blood, or any other imagined blood. It is the blood that brings at-one-ment with God and there must be the spilling of blood and sacrifice. ...

I really, really, dislike the blood atonement doctrine no matter how you slice it.
I completely agree that the standard form of the basic Christian atonement doctrine is absurd. Two wrongs do not make a right for anyone, God or mortal. If the ultimate being in all reality has no way to just forgive freely but has to exact X amount of punishment for X amount of sin, and yet it doesn't matter who gets punished as long as someone does, then that's just idiotic and obscene. If a human being behaved that way we would all agree that this was some kind of sicko like one of the twisted villains from Batman comics.

I think, though, that there are other possibilities that do make a lot more sense, yet that might be hard to explain to more primitive cultures without just sounding like blood atonement.

For example my own tentative belief is that we and our whole universe are something like a simulation which God is running, and that God's main goal is to hatch us out of the simulation into a larger reality. At least in my hypothesis, this somehow requires God to share God's reality with us, keeping our simulated stories going. If God were to become too disgusted with one of us as a character, and decide to reboot, that character would be gone forever. I think that this amounts to a great sacrifice on God's part, tolerating an excruciating amount of horrible failure on our parts which God experiences in enormous detail, just to keep us in the picture.

This is what I think of, anyway, when I hear about how God so loved the world and so on. To me it makes sense as a scenario, and yet I can also see how in some ways it kind of looks like blood atonement. I expect there are other ways to re-imagine the Christian Atonement more sanely. At any rate I agree that the traditional explanation is absurd and revolting.
What if fire is only the first of a million such things?
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Elizabeth
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by Elizabeth »

Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience:
“‘And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of Him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of Him: That he lives!
“‘For we saw Him’ (D&C 76:22–23).
msnobody
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by msnobody »

…With that said, I do understand that others adore Christ's blood and so I have to walk on egg shells up here in the Celestial Forum so I don't overstep bounds. You know what I mean. ;)
That’s why I tend to post in one of the paradise forums.
And he made from one man every nation of mankind… having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us.
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Shulem
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by Shulem »

It seems that our new poster, Elizabeth, just wants to preach and drop faith promoting messages on this board with no thought to responding or discussing the contents.

Carry on, Elizabeth, to your heart's content.

I'll just close the door behind me, thank you.
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by High Spy »

Elizabeth wrote:
Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:13 pm
Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience:
“‘And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of Him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of Him: That he lives!
“‘For we saw Him’ (D&C 76:22–23).
Sidney Rigdon composed the Book of Mormon manuscript via automatic writing.
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by huckelberry »

Physics Guy, I can appreciate your comments on the atonement. In the past I have studied a bit the regular theories and have never been really satisfied. If one combines them it is better than trying to choose one. It is as if the theories do not really see the whole picture.

theories can be dry as bones.

I wonder if asking what is necessary in order for God to forgive may be missing another question. What is necessary for people to finally forgive each other. It might not be workable for God to forgive without people forgiving as well. In some ways that might be difficult. What would heaven be if all our wars and injuries and resentments all find a way to creep in?

Theories always speak of what individual gets the atonement applied to them. Oh ho this individual is safe. Yes we are individuals and it matters individually. At the same time we are never never just individuals. We are part of a larger community. If an atonement is not addressing the life process of a community then it is futile.
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by huckelberry »

I ruminated further for better or worse.

Old Testament sacrifice was not about creating suffering to pay for anything. They were gifts to recognize an ongoing relationship.

I think it is clear that Jesus was trying to create a renewed people who lived more like God wished people to live. Caring for and forgiving each other was central to that project. Jesus continued the project even though it started to rub against the authorities who came to view him as a threat.Jesus death was first of all an act of commitment to his project.

I am probably influenced a bit by NT Wright here but I can see Jesus atonement as first making the foundation for righteousness that God called Israel to be by himself being that. This cannot be separated from the act of accepting the suffering that forgiveness involves. This forgiveness is something people must share as well as receive from God.
As Physics Guy pointed out forgiveness involves suffering on the part of the party forgiving . In terms of Christian atonement, God accepts upon himself the suffering resulting from forgiveness.
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Shulem
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by Shulem »

Elizabeth wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:49 pm
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

No, I will not keep it holy and will not acquiesce to Christian demands. I will do whatever I want on Sunday and maintain that day according my own desires and dictates. Nobody is going to tell me what I can and can't do on Sunday.

So, forget it. And, I do not consider it a holy day. It's my fun day! And being away from church makes it that much more fun. I recommend that everyone skip church. Better yet, stop going to church altogether and do what you want with your own life. Don't let an ancient book written by people who don't know you tell you what to do.

So there. I feel better now.

:)
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Shulem
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Re: LDS Thoughts and DOCTRINE.

Post by Shulem »

Elizabeth wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:49 pm
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

I think that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is guilty for breaking a commandment they claim to keep. Church goers adore statues and admire them as if they are sacred -- even reverencing them in hushed tones.

New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?


I view this as idolatry.

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