Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Shulem
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by Shulem »

Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote:The argument, however, ignores the historical context of Joseph Smith’s personal interest in languages.
Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote:<snip>

Indeed, Joseph Smith had quite an interest in languages. He wanted to learn and know things pertaining to several languages, i.e., Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and German. Everyone has interests and everyone has hobbies. But it must be understood that those languages in which he dabbled were KNOWN languages. However, the UNKNOWN languages in which Smith claimed to translate were Egyptian which must be translated by revelation in utilizing the gift of a seer by the power of God.

1. Reformed Egyptian (Book of Mormon)
2. Conventional Egyptian (Book of Abraham)

There is a universal and infinite difference between a KNOWN language and an UNKNOWN language. Joseph Smith is on record for being able to translate two unknown Egyptian languages, one of which was made available to the public eye while the other was secretly returned to the angel. Everyone, including Smith, knew that the conventional Egyptian was a dead language and remained an unknown language to the scholars of the world. Therefore, it would require the gift and power of a seer to be able to translate an unknown language. The only other way anyone could translate an unknown language is to have the same information side by side in which to decode the meaning, hence the Rosetta Stone!

So, no matter how well Smith enjoyed his personal skills in dabbling with known languages, there was no method available to decipher an unknown language outside the bounds of revelation through the Spirit. Right? The Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear that the only way to decipher an unknown language is by the power of God:

Mormon 9:34 wrote:But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

Interestingly enough, in May of 1843, Smith quoted the above verse cited by Mormon while discussing his understanding of various languages in the Times and Seasons and differentiating between the known and unknown.

Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, MAY 15, 1843 wrote:There was no Greek or Latin upon the plates from which I, through the grace of God. translated the Book of Mormon. Let the language of that book speak for itself. In the 523d page, of the fourth edition, it reads: “And now behold we have written this record according to our knowledge in the characters, which are called among us the Reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech; and if our plates had been sufficiently large, we should have written in Hebrew: but the Hebrew hath been altered by us, also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold ye would have had no imperfection in our record, but the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also, that none other people knoweth our language; therefore he that prepared means for the interpretation thereof.”

Here then the subject is put to silence, for “none other people knoweth our language,” therefore the Lord, and not man, had to interpret, after the people were all dead. And, as Paul said, “the world by wisdom know not God,” so the world by speculation are destitute of revelation; and as God in his superior wisdom, has always given his saints, wherever he had any on the earth, the same spirit, and that spirit, is John says, is the true spirit of prophesy, which is the testimony of Jesus. . .

Now, let us rely on some key points given in the King Follett Discourse (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith) in which Smith lets us know that the Holy Spirit was always his guide when translating anything for the benefit of the Church, whether a known language or an unknown language:

  • I feel disposed to speak on the subject in general, and offer you my ideas, so far as I have ability, and so far as I shall be inspired by the Holy Spirit to dwell on this subject
  • I want your prayers and faith that I may have the instruction of Almighty God and the gift of the Holy Ghost
  • I do not intend to please your ears with superfluity of words or oratory, or with much learning; but I intend to edify you with the simple truths from heaven
  • Learned men can teach you no more than what I have told you. Thus the head God brought forth the Gods in the grand council. I will transpose and simplify it in the English language. Oh, ye lawyers, ye doctors, and ye priests, who have persecuted me, I want to let you know that the Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do
  • The Latin says Jacobus, which means Jacob; the Hebrew says Jacob, the Greek says Jacob and the German says Jacob; here we have the testimony of four against one. I thank God that I have got this old book; but I thank him more for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have got the oldest book in the world; but I have the oldest book in my heart, even the gift of the Holy Ghost
  • But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and He is within me, and comprehends more than all the world: and I will associate myself with Him


Wow, just wow.
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 4:06 am
I just happen to be wrapping up my "Semester" on "Getting Clear on the Joseph Smith Papyri" Live sessions tomorrow night at Mormon Discussion Inc. and will be talking about your materials as well. I am astonished I have done 15 + episodes on the papyri already! My the time flies when yer havin fun! :lol: After I do a final wrap, I am going to talk to the chat and see what they are in the mood for next, should be more fun times for all...

Hey, Philo, after this discussion comes to fruition you may want to run a special podcast as the Backyard Professor on the Kinderhook Plates. Why? Well, you’re going to have a lot more information about this subject from the Paul Osborne point of view and things are about to really heat up. I’m kind of glad that Don has left the room for a while because it gives me a chance to own the floor and make my case without the typical back and forth that tends to break the train of thought. Don wanted feedback on his article, and that is exactly what he is going to get -- POW!

;)
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote:A close investigation of the episode indicates that his “translation” from the Kinderhook plates was an attempt at traditional translation.

Hold on there!

A “traditional translation” is how ordinary scholars perform a translation such as converting Hebrew into Greek or vice versa. A traditional translation is translating a KNOWN language into another known language. Conversely, a non-traditional translation is when someone doesn’t know what they are doing or making things up out of whole cloth. A non-traditional translation may claim supernatural means outside the realm of ordinary scholarship. For example, the Kirtland Egyptian Papers include lot’s of examples of non-traditional translations and to this day those things have been proven absolutely false.

When did Smith ever say that he performed a traditional translation? He did not! Never at any time did Smith say he was simply trying his own hand in deciphering the Kinderhook characters apart from his gift of being a seer. Smith kept the plates in his home for a few days and performed a kind of translation. But who saw him translate? Where is it said or written that Smith translated in a traditional sense without revelation and guidance of the Spirit? To say that Smith attempted to translate by traditional means is an assumption and is not backed by a statement to that effect. Consulting a “Hebrew Bible & lexicon” serves to enquire if it is a known language. Smith wanted to know if anyone knew the language! He certainly wasn’t going to translate and stick his neck out if scholars could prove him wrong. Nobody can perform a translation of an unknown language. One must compare a known language to another known language in order to translate! It’s simply not possible to translate an unknown language without understanding the data. Joseph Smith understood that principle as given in the Book of Mormon: “therefore the Lord, and not man, had to interpret, after the people were all dead” because nobody knew the language.
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote:He had not attempted a translation with divine aid, as he had with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham, and he did not lead others to believe he had.

Stop!

You don’t know that. You can’t say that because you were not there and no where is it written that Smith attempted to translate without divine aid! The statement above is a wild assumption and totally baseless and goes against everything Smith ever said about his ability and divine mission as a prophet, seer, revelator, and translator. It goes against the teachings of the Book of Mormon and principles expressed in the Doctrine and Covenants. Furthermore, Smith certainly did “lead others to believe” he performed a translation by divine aid because they believed he translated an UNKNOWN language by the power of God. They assumed Smith was inspired of God and that the plates were authentic.
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote: His incorrect translation of the Kinderhook plates was simply a mistake—something he had never thought himself above.

The incorrect translation was more than just a mistake. It serves to prove that Smith made the mistake of trying to fool his people yet again by pretending to have the divine ability to translate an UNKNOWN language!

And that, my friend, is where everything comes crashing down.
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William Clayton

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Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote:Stanley Kimball argued that the information on the Kinderhook plates in the History of the Church was unreliable because it was not taken from Joseph Smith’s journal but rather from William Clayton’s.

I question Kimball’s logic in arriving at his conclusion based on your statement above. What difference does it make which journal Clayton’s statement is written in? Assuming the statement is true and factual, it would read the same regardless of which bound journal it was recorded in. The reliability of Clayton’s ability to record accurate information is what counts, NOT the binder in which it is recorded. Discrediting Clayton’s journal entry is a denial of the evidence that is given by the very person who was charged to provide the evidence. That was his job and his calling. Don Bradley makes excellent points in defending Clayton including the following:

Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote: William Clayton served as Joseph Smith’s private secretary and in several clerical capacities in the Church and in Nauvoo’s city government. While carrying out his duties, Clayton often worked closely with Joseph Smith. James B. Allen, a Mormon historian who wrote a biography of Clayton, explained that “beginning in early 1842, William Clayton found himself involved in nearly every important activity of Nauvoo, but especially the private concerns of Joseph Smith. For two and a half years, until Joseph’s death in 1844, they were in each other’s company almost daily.” Over time, they became good friends. Because William Clayton was so close to Joseph Smith, his journal contains valuable information about the things the Prophet said and did. This is why the early Church historians felt comfortable utilizing entries from Clayton’s journal.

I have to think that early Church historians were correct in relying on the accuracy of Clayton’s entry and ability to represent what Joseph Smith originally expressed. After all, it was Clayton’s job to do just that! And he did in fact handle the plate(s) and traced the outline of one of them in his own journal. I find Kimball’s denials disturbing. He throws Clayton under the bus and blames him as of he’s a culprit. That may be a little strong but my goodness…
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Charlotte Haven

Post by Shulem »

Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote:Taken together, these sources indicate that Joseph Smith was attempting to translate the Kinderhook plates by ordinary methods of traditional translation. Furthermore, they show that he was doing so openly, in the company of a group of Church members and nonmembers. In contrast, there is no mention of Joseph Smith using the Urim and Thummim or a seer stone or divine revelation of any kind in any of the sources close to the event. William Clayton mentioned nothing about revelation in his journal entry about the translation of the plates.

Don, in the above statement you assert that nobody (“close to the event”) ever mentioned that revelation was used by the prophet to translate the Kinderhook plates. But how close is close and how far is far? Your paper mentions Charlotte Haven’s testimonial in which she tells how Mr. Moore “Showed them to Joseph, the latter said that the figures or writing on them was similar to that in which the Book of Mormon was written, and if Mr. Moore could leave them, he thought that by the help of revelation he would be able to translate them.”

It makes perfect sense that everyone just assumed Smith would use REVELATION to translate the Kinderhook brass plates just as he did the gold plates and the Egyptian papyrus.
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Times and Seasons

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Times and Seasons, MAY 15, 1843 wrote: Mr. Smith has had those plates, what his opinion concerning them is, we have not yet ascertained. The gentleman that owns them has taken them away, or we should have given a fac similie of the plates and characters in this number. We are informed however, that he purposes returning with them for translation; if so, we may be able yet to furnish our readers with it.

It will be seen by the annexed statement of the Quincy Whig, that there are more dreamers and money diggers, than Joseph Smith, in the world, and the worthy editor is obliged to acknowledge that this circumstance will go a good way to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. He further states that, "if Joseph Smith can decypher the hieroglyphics on the plates, he will do more towards throwing light on the early history of this continent than any man living." We think that he has done that already, in translating and publishing the Book of Mormon, and would advise the gentleman and all interested, to read for themselves, and understand. We have no doubt however, but Mr. Smith will be able to translate them.

To the Editor of the Times and Seasons.

On the 16th of April last a respectable merchant by the name of Robert Wiley, commenced digging in a large mound near this place: he excavated to the depth of 10 feet and came to rock; about that time the rain began to fall, and he abandoned the work. On the 23d he and quite a number of the citizens with myself, repaired to the mound, and after making ample opening, we found plenty of rock, the most of which appeared as though it had been strongly burned; and after removing full two feet of said rock, we found plenty of charcoal and ashes; also human bones that appeared as though they had been burned; and near the eciphalon a bundle was found that consisted of six plates of brass, of a bell shape, each having a hole near the small end, and a ring through them all, and clasped with two clasps, the ring and claps appeared to be of iron very much oxidated, the plates appeared first to be copper, and had the appearance of being covered with characters. It was agreed by the company that I should cleanse the plates: accordingly I took them to my house, washed them with soap and water, and a woolen cloth; but finding them not yet cleansed I treated them with dilute sulphuric acid which made them perfectly clean, on which it appeared that they were completely covered with hieroglyphics that none as yet have been able to read. Wishing that the world might know the hidden things as fast as they come to light, I was induced to state the facts, hoping that you would give it an insertion in your excellent, paper for we all feel anxious to know the true meaning of the plates, and publishing, the facts might lead to the true translation. They were found, I judged, more than twelve feet below the surface of the top of the mound.

The following certificate was forwarded for publication, at the same time.

We the citizens of Kinderhook, whose names are annexed do certify and declare that on the 23d April, 1843, while excavating a large mound, in this vicinity, Mr. R. Wiley took from said mound, six brass plates of a bell shape, covered with ancient characters. Said plates were very much oxidated --the bands and rings on said plates mouldered into dust on a slight pressure. The above described plates we have handed to Mr. Sharp for the purpose of taking them to Nauvoo.

Rob't Wiley, W. P. Harris,

G. W. F. Ward, W. Longnecker,

Fayette Grubb, Ira S. Curtis,

Geo. Deckenson, W. Fugate.

J. R. Sharp.

(From the Quincy Whig.)

Singular Discover-Material for Another Mormon Book.

A Mr. J. Roberts, from Pike county, called upon us last Monday, with a written description of a discovery which was recently made near Kinderhook, in that county. We have not room for his communication at length, and will give so much of a summary of it, as will enable the reader to form a pretty correct opinion of the discovery made.

It appeared that a young man by the name of Wiley, a resident in Kinderhook, dreamed three nights in succession, that in a certain mound in the vicinity, there was treasures concealed.-Impressed with the strange occurrence of dreaming the same dream three nights in succession, he came to the conclusion, to satisfy his mind by digging into the mound. For fear of being laughed at, if he made others acquainted with his design, he went by himself, and labored diligently one day in pursuit of the supposed treasure, by sinking a hole in the centre of the mound. Finding it quite laborous, he invited others to assist him. Finally, a company of ten or twelve repaired to the mound, and assisted in digging out the shaft commenced by Wiley. After penetrating the mound about 11 feet, they came to a bed of limestone, that had apparently been subjected to the action of fire, they removed the stone, which were small and easy to handle, to the depth of two feet more, when they found Six Brass Plates, secured and fastened together by two iron wires, but which were so decayed, that they readily crumbled to dust upon being handled. The plates were so completely covered with rust as almost to obliterate the characters inscribed upon them; but after undergoing a chemical process, the incriptions were brought out plain and distinct. There were six plates-four inches in length, one inch and three quarters wide at the top, and two inches and three quarters wide at the bottom, flaring out to points. There are four lines of characters or hieroglyphics on each; on one side of the plates are parallel lines running lengthwise. A few of the characters resemble, in their form, the Roman capitals of our alphabet-for instance the capital B and X appear very distinct. In addition, there are rude representations of three human heads on one of the plates, the largest in the middle; from this head proceeds marks or rays, resembling those which usually surround the head of Christ, in the pictoral representations of his person. There is also figures of two trees with branches, one under each of the two small heads, both leaning a little to the right. One of the plates, has on it the figure of a large head by itself, with two + pointing directly to it.

By whom these palates were deposited there must ever remain a secret, unless some one skilled in deciphering hieroglyphics, may be found to unravel the mystery. Some pretend to say, that Smith the Mormon leader, has the ability to read them. If he has, he will confer a great favor on the public by removing the mystery which hangs over them. We learn there was a Mormon present when the plates were found, who it is said, leaped for joy at the discovery, and remarked that it would go to prove the authenticity of the Book of Mormon-which it undoubtedly will.

In the place where these plates were deposited, were also found human bones in the last stage of decomposition; also some braid, which was at first supposed to be human hair, but on a closer examination proved to be grass; probably used as a covering for the bodies deposited there; this was also in the last stage of decay. There were but few bones found in the mound; and it is believed, that it was but the burial place of a small number, perhaps of a person, or a family of distinction, in ages long gone by, and that these plates contain the history of the times, or of a people, that existed far-far beyond the memory of the present race. But we will not conjecture any thing about this wonderful dicovery, as it is one which the plates alone can reveal.

On each side of this mound in which this discovery was made, was a mound, on one of which is a tree growing that measures two feet and a half in diameter, near the ground. Showing the great antiquity of the mounds, and of course, all that is buried within them. These mounds like others, that are found scattered all over the Mississippi valley, are in the form of a sugar loaf.

The plates above alluded to, were exhibited in this city last week, and are now, we understand, in Nauvoo, subject to the inspection of the Mormon Prophet. The public curiosity is greatly excited, and if Smith can decipher the hieroglyphics on the plates, he will do more towards throwing light on the early history of this continent, than any man now living.

Note that it was said “Smith the Mormon leader, has the ability to read them” and this *ABILITY* is based on his claim that a seer translates by revelation and not by conventional means. Note also that “he has done that already, in translating and publishing the Book of Mormon.”
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by bill4long »

It seems like the current crop of "prophets, seers and revelators" can't resolve the big questions.

Why not?, I wonder.

Just look into the Stone, Brethren. It's right there. Just like an iPhone.

If you can't handle it, give me the Stone, I'll gaze. Really, I will.

In the Name of the Mormon Jesus Christ, Amen.

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Sun, moon, and stars

Post by Shulem »

Front and back facsimiles of six Kinderhook plates:

High resolution photos at Mormon Think

High resolution photo at Wikipedia -- scroll down and zoom

Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote:From the facsimiles printed by the Church newspaper, it can be seen that the characters and illustrations on each of the Kinderhook plates are divided by an inscribed line—with a more illustrative section at the top of the plate and with characters inscribed below on the main body of the plate. One of the sides of one of the plates—the last one illustrated in the broadside—differs from the others, rendering the area above the line significantly larger. Also, whereas most of the headings to the plates are filled with illustrations—particularly suns with faces—the plate side with the larger heading features two large characters. The first of these characters is the boat-shaped figure.

Okay, without further ado, I need to express exactly what I think Wilburn Fugate was up to when he etched those characters on the front and backsides of the six plates. It’s really not complicated at all. It’s not rocket science.

Paul Osborne wrote:It’s natural and all rather very simple. Fugate was transposing timeless images of the sun, moon, and stars at the headers of each plate and decorated them with natural plant flora and fauna and even mountains. The sun disc is represented with its rays of light. The half moon is also discernable in two places, one in the vertical and the other horizontal with distinct lines suggesting the wax and wane cycles of the moon. The full moon disc is also expressed to the left of the vertical shaped half moon that is cycling. The little circles are the stars that surround the sun and moon. The frowny-faced disc represents both the the moon and the sun that sits atop three mountains.

Example:

Image

1. Hole on top for the wire
2. Half moon that waxes and wanes
3. Stars
Last edited by Shulem on Tue May 17, 2022 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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