Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Shulem
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by Shulem »

Don Bradley wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:27 am
2) One of those involved in the forgery reported that it was inspired by what Parley P. Pratt said in his Voice of Warning about how truth would spring out of the earth to confirm the Book of Mormon, so it's possible that there's some further spoofing on Pratt in the plates themselves. So it may be worth checking further on how Pratt discusses this theme in his writing.

Pratt provides a description of the gold plates in A Voice of Warning and other pertinent information about the Book of Mormon story in which the perpetrators likely used to come up with ideas and motives for their hoax. I include them here for reference:

Parley P Pratt wrote:These records were engraved on plates which had the appearance of gold. Each plate was not far from seven inches in width, by eight inches In length, being not quite as thick as common tin. They were filled on both sides with engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together In a volume, as the leaves of a book, and fastened at one edge with three rings running through the whole. This volume was something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed. The characters or letters upon the unsealed part were small and beautifully engraved. The whole book exhibited many marks of antiquity In its construction, as well as much skill in lie art of engraving.

The translation process began:

Parley P Pratt wrote:In the meantime, a few of the original characters were accurately transcribed and translated by Mr. Smith, which, with the translation, were taken by a gentleman named Martin Harris to the City of New York, where they were presented to a learned gentleman named Anthon, who professed to be extensively acquainted with many languages, both ancient and modern. He examined them, but was unable to decipher them correctly ; but he presumed that if the original records could be brought, he could assist in translating them. But to return. Mr. Smith continued the work of translation, as his pecuniary circumstances would permit, until he had finished the unsealed part of the records. The part translated is entitled the "Book of Mormon," which contains nearly as much reading as the Old Testament.

American Indians and lost records:

Parley P Pratt wrote:If you had been ploughing, or digging a well or cellar, and accidently dug up a record containing some account of the ancient history of the American continent, and of its original inhabitants, together with the origin of the Indian tribes who now inhabit it; had this record had nothing to do with God, or angels, or inspiration; it would have been hailed, by all the learned of America and Europe, as one of the greatest and most important discoveries of modern times, unfolding a mystery which had, until then, bid defiance to all the researches of the learned world. Every newspaper would have been filled with the glad tidings, while its contents would have poured upon the world a flood of light, on subjects before concealed in the labyrinth of uncertainty and doubt.

Understanding lost Indian languages:

Parley P Pratt wrote:Boudinot, in his noble work, remarks concerning their language: Their language, In its roots, idiom, and particular construction appears to have the whole genius of the Hebrew; and what is very remarkable, and well worthy of serious attention, has most of the peculiarities of that lauguage, especially those in which it differs from most other languages. There is a tradition related by an aged Indian, of the Stockbridge tribe, that their fathers were once in posession of a "Sacred Book," which Iras handed down from generation to generation; and at last hid in the earth, since which time they had been under the feet of their enemies. But these oracles were to be restored to them again; and then they would triumph over their enemies, and regain their rights and privileges. Mr. Boudiuot, after recording many traditions similar to the above, at length remarks: **Can any man read this short account of Indian traditions, drawn from tribes of various' nations

From this we can gather that Fugate and Wiley were able to piece together the story of the Book of Mormon and use that information to devise a plan for a hoax in which they may entrap the prophet Joseph Smith and lure him into translating fake plates. Both of these men were proselytized by missionaries using Pratt’s missionary tract. I think it’s also highly likely that the missionaries also informed them about the Book of Abraham translation which would give them additional ideas for their hoax. The missionaries may have even had a copy of the Times and Seasons publication of the Book of Abraham or at minimum recount content of that recent publication which details special instructions on heavenly astronomy.

This supports the idea for why I think it very likely that astronomical iconographic representations (although crudely expressed) are featured in the headers of the Kinderhook plates. Yes, those are human faces in the sun/moon discs! What else could they be?
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Don Bradley wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 4:27 am
1) The symbols above the line on each plate appear more pictographic than those beneath the line.

<snip>

In other words, there's a great deal of contextual information that can be brought together with the actual symbols on the plates to explore what the forgers may have been thinking.

Keep going!

Okay, I will.

There is one other possibility for the frowny-faced sun/moon disc over the three mountains that comes to mind. It’s possible.

And don’t you dare laugh at me as I stick my neck out promoting my wild ideas!

Let’s join hands and consider the possibilities!

Kumbayah…

:lol:



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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Don Bradley and Mark Ashurst-McGee wrote:Toward the end of the nineteenth century, suspicions began to arise regarding the authenticity of the plates. In the 1870s, Wilbur Fugate, one of the men who unearthed the plates, wrote letters revealing that the plates were part of a hoax. He claimed that he, Robert Wiley, and the village blacksmith had made the plates, and he had planted them in the mound the night before their discovery. One of Fugate’s letters was published in an anti-Mormon book in 1886.

Don’s paper piecemeals content from Fugate’s letter to James T. Cobb, so let’s take a peek at the entire letter in one glance. We clearly ascertain that hieroglyphics was the intended language in which the Kinderhook plates were fashioned.

Wilburn Fugate,1879 wrote:Mr. Cobb: —

I received your letter in regard to those plates, and will say in answer that they are a HUMBUG, gotten up by Robert Wiley, Bridge Whitton and myself. Whitton is dead. I do not know whether Wiley is or not. None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew the secret, except, Wiley and I. We read in Pratt’s prophecy that “Truth is yet to spring up out of the earth.” We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke. We soon made our plans and executed them, Bridge Whitton cut them out of some pieces of copper; Wiley and I made the hieroglyphics by making impressions on beeswax and filling them with acid and putting it on the plates. When they were finished we put them together with rust made of nitric acid, old iron and lead, and bound them with a piece of hoop iron, covering them completely with the rust. Our plans worked admirably. A certain Sunday was appointed for digging. The night before, Wiley went to the Mound where he had previously dug to the depth of about eight feet, there being a flat rock that sounded hollow beneath, and put them under it. On the following morning quite a number of citizens were there to assist in the search, there being two Mormon elders present. The rock was soon removed, but some time elapsed before the plates were discovered. I finally picked them up and exclaimed, “A piece of pot metal!” Fayette Grubb snatched them from me and struck them against the rock and they fell to pieces. Dr. Harris examined them and said they had hieroglyphics on them. He took acid and removed the rust and they were soon out on exhibition. Under this rock was dome-like in appearance, about three feet in diameter, there were a few bones in the last stage of decomposition, also a few pieces of pottery and charcoal. There was NO SKELETON found. Sharp, the Mormon Elder, leaped and shouted for joy and said, Satan had appeared to him and told him not to go, it was a hoax of Fugate and Wiley’s, — but at a later hour the Lord appeared and told him to go, the treasure was there.

The Mormons wanted to take the plates to Joe Smith, but we refused to let them go. Some time afterward a man assuming the name of Savage, of Quincy, borrowed the plates of Wiley to show to his literary friends there, and took them to Joe Smith. The same identical plates were returned to Wiley, who gave them to Professor McDowell, of St. Louis, for his Museum.

W. FUGATE

Apart from my earlier assertion that Fugate probably heard about the Book of Abraham Egyptian papyrus from the missionaries, let’s consult the dictionary of the times to see how Fugate might have interpreted the meaning of a hieroglyphic language.

Noah Webster, 1828 wrote:HI'EROGLYPH

HIEROGLYPH'IC, noun [Gr. sacred, and to carve.]

1. In antiquity, a sacred character; a mystical character or symbol, used in writings and inscriptions, particularly by the Egyptians, as signs of sacred, divine, or supernatural things. The hieroglyphics were figures of animals, parts of the human body, mechanical instruments, etc., which contained a meaning known only to kings and priests. It is supposed they were used to vail morality, politics, etc., from vulgar eves.

2. Pictures intended to express historical facts; supposed to be the primitive mode of writing.

3. The art of writing in picture.

HIEROGLYPH'IC

Fugate must have known the gold plates consisted of Egyptian characters. Pratt’s “Voice of Warning” makes that point perfectly clear. Obviously, Fugate could not imitate Egyptian, he was left to make up bogus characters which is exactly what he did. Fake Indian writing was his plan and that is what he implemented. Interestingly enough, however, there are what appear to be a few Runes letters on the Kinderhook plates!
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by Don Bradley »

Shulem wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 3:41 pm

There is one other possibility for the frowny-faced sun/moon disc over the three mountains that comes to mind. It’s possible.

And don’t you dare laugh at me as I stick my neck out promoting my wild ideas!

Let’s join hands and consider the possibilities!

Kumbayah…

:lol:


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Shulem,

Bahahahaha!
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by Don Bradley »

Ah, nice correction on there being no bones buried with the plates according to Fugate.

And fantastic content from Voice of Warning.

On the idea of the plates having been made as a trap for Joseph Smith, I would instead go with what Fugate says about his and the other forgers' motives, as you quote it: 'We read in Pratt’s prophecy that “Truth is yet to spring up out of the earth.” We concluded to prove the prophecy by way of a joke.' Kinderhook was a few days' journey from Nauvoo, and the joke appears to have been aimed at the local Mormons in Kinderhook, who were invited to the excavation. When one of the Mormons asked to take the plates to Nauvoo, the forgers/"finders" refused to let him, and they were only taken there when someone decided to effectively steal them to take them to Joseph Smith. Once they arrived there, the forgers' joke played out on a far higher level than they could have ever imagined, with the Times and Seasons publishing facsimiles, the Mormons in general believing in them, and Joseph Smith translating from them. So the forgers then got dollar signs in their eyes and tried to sell them to Joseph Smith.


in another vein, if the forgers were thinking of the plates being Indian, I wonder what models they would have had of Indian symbols, such as pictographs? Can we see how they were copying such symbols? The off-beat epigrapher Barry Fell examined the Kinderhook plates, and may have compare them to Micmac and other writing systems.

Similarly, your possibility of runes on the plates is utterly fascinating!

Don
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by Moksha »

Don Bradley wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:49 am
The off-beat epigrapher Barry Fell examined the Kinderhook plates, and may have compare them to Micmac and other writing systems.
Don
What about the ancient Proto-Uto-Aztecan script or something found on the Manishtusu obelisk?
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Don Bradley wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:49 am

Similarly, your possibility of runes on the plates is utterly fascinating!

Don

Don,

See here, scroll down to the second row, far left plate. The arrow character () is near the center, close to the bottom of the belled plate.

There is the possibility that Runes was an influence depending on whether Fugate and Wiley knew of the writing systems as an idea to incorporate into their spoofed characters although in an altered fashion. But one of the characters (TYR VICTORY) seems to have made it into one of the plates in pristine form. As Mr. Spock would say, “Fascinating”!

Wikipedia wrote:Tiwaz (rune)

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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Don Bradley wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:49 am
So the forgers then got dollar signs in their eyes and tried to sell them to Joseph Smith.

Don

I agree. None of the nine persons who signed the certificate knew it was a spoof other than Fugate and Wiley who were in on the joke. They kept it a secret. But right, the idea of making money surely entered their minds. And the joke was not revealed to the Mormons and we don’t get details of the forgery until much later. The plates even make it into a museum. Everyone, especially the Mormons (INCLUDING JOSEPH SMITH) believed the plates were authentic and of ancient origin. That is a very important point because Joseph Smith was never moved by the Spirit to reveal that the plates were fake. The gift of discernment was wholly lacking. Apologists today fall back on the fact that he did not provide a translation. But he was way to busy to translate anything. The construction of the Nauvoo House and the Nauvoo Temple required all of his attention.
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:34 am
Don Bradley wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:49 am
The off-beat epigrapher Barry Fell examined the Kinderhook plates, and may have compare them to Micmac and other writing systems.
Don
What about the ancient Proto-Uto-Aztecan script or something found on the Manishtusu obelisk?

Beam me up!


I believe this record tells of a lost civilization and the coming of a future prophet to save the world from certain destruction.

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Behold, I am prophet Kirk.

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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by Don Bradley »

Shulem wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:31 pm
Moksha wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:34 am

What about the ancient Proto-Uto-Aztecan script or something found on the Manishtusu obelisk?

Beam me up!


I believe this record tells of a lost civilization and the coming of a future prophet to save the world from certain destruction.

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Behold, I am prophet Kirk.

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Bahahahahaha! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
"People can find meaninglessness in just about anything if they convince themselves that there is no meaning in that thing." - The Rev. Dr. Lumen Kishkumen
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