Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Shulem
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Moksha, are u there?

;)
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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http://www.mormonthink.com/files/hc372to379.htm

The second and fourth bell plates appear to be an E-meter reading of Thetans at the top.
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Shulem
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Moksha wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 1:59 pm
http://www.mormonthink.com/files/hc372to379.htm

The second and fourth bell plates appear to be an E-meter reading of Thetans at the top.

Yeah, could be that too.

;)
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Shulem wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 2:36 pm
Moksha wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 1:59 pm
http://www.mormonthink.com/files/hc372to379.htm

The second and fourth bell plates appear to be an E-meter reading of Thetans at the top.

Yeah, could be that too.

;)
But you found astronomical or lunar cycle meanings?
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Moksha wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 3:39 pm
But you found astronomical or lunar cycle meanings?

Fugate and Wiley must have given some thought into the hieroglyphic and pictorial design they wanted to employ for their forgery. Undoubtedly, they were aware of the Book of Abraham publication which Smith published the previous year in the Times and Seasons. It’s not unreasonable to think that they even saw the Facsimiles in print and maybe even actually read the Book of Abraham text. Who can say? The whole purpose of the hoax was to see if Smith could come up with another Book of Mormon or perhaps a Book of Abraham and then get a good laugh at Smith’s expense. It was all a joke! Right?

So, consider the idea that they needed to have an appropriate design at the header of each plate. After all, primitives who would have made such plates would have kept it simple and natural. Right? So why not incorporate the sun, moon, and stars into their plates in a mysterious and cryptic way in order to entice Smith into moving forward with a translation as he did with the papyrus? If I was trying to fool Joseph Smith and design fake plates that is exactly what I’d do. The Book of Abraham is loaded with examples of astronomical features.

Look at the word count from the Book of Abraham in which the forgers could have used to inspire ideas on how to design the motif at the plate headers. Astronomical data about the sun, moon, and stars is a main feature for Facsimile No. 2. Astronomy is what is supposedly taking place in Facsimile no. 3.

Sun is mentioned 2 times in Facsimile No. 2
Moon is mentioned 1 time in Facsimile No. 2
Stars is mentioned 2 times in Facsimile No. 2

Sun is mentioned 2 times in the Book of Abraham story
Moon is mentioned 2 times in the Book of Abraham story
Star(s) is mentioned 8 times in the Book of Abraham story
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Orion’s Belt?

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What are the six stars (?) on the plate? The three to the right are in a tic-tac-toe formation and the three at left are somewhat offset? Stars? Oh come on!

Look:

Image

What IF?

Image

If the three circled stars in the above diagram are the same three stars on the plate then that means the other three stars make for a match. Betelgeuse would be the lowest star on the plate. Of course, this is depicted from a certain angle and is wild speculation. But hey, leave no stone unturned and ask questions!

I love to speculate. It’s fun! If you’re lying down on the ground looking up at Orion you can see the belt in any position depending on your orientation. Right?

:lol:
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Heh... the Orion gig is interesting...
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:21 am
Heh... the Orion gig is interesting...

It is interesting. We can reason that the crude shapes and things that make up the pictorial design within the upper portion of each plate were carved to represent something in particular -- a 19th century person attempting to imitate primitive art. All of this, however, is somewhat moot. What’s important is that Smith believed the plates were genuine and attributed them to Egyptian origins through Ham. If Smith really was clairvoyant he would have dismissed the whole thing as a fake and con.
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

Post by Don Bradley »

Paul,

I love that you are looking into what the forgers may have had in mind.

Here are a few thoughts along those lines that may help...

1) The symbols above the line on each plate appear more pictographic than those beneath the line.

2) One of those involved in the forgery reported that it was inspired by what Parley P. Pratt said in his Voice of Warning about how truth would spring out of the earth to confirm the Book of Mormon, so it's possible that there's some further spoofing on Pratt in the plates themselves. So it may be worth checking further on how Pratt discusses this theme in his writing.

3) The prophecy to which Pratt alludes is from Psalm 85:

10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
11 Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

4) The forgers were also spoofing the Book of Mormon itself, both in creating buried plates and in having their ostensible finder led to them by dreaming of them three times, echoing Moroni's three night-time visits to Joseph Smith. So the forgers may have also played on other things they knew about the Book of Mormon.

5) Bones found with the plates reportedly made those present think that the 'man' whose bones they were was 9-feet tall. While Stanley Kimball used this detail to dismiss all the accounts of the plates as mere rumor, it's quite plausible that the forgers would have buried the plates with bones from non-human animals to make it appear that the person buried with them was preternaturally sized. Accounts of 8-9 foot skeletons were actually extremely common in the day, reflecting both a common tendency to misidentify animal bones as human bones and to credit lore of ancient, possibly antediluvian giants. The forgers could easily have played on such accounts.


In other words, there's a great deal of contextual information that can be brought together with the actual symbols on the plates to explore what the forgers may have been thinking.

Keep going!

Don
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Re: Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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What have been some of the numerous theories advanced by apologists over the years? Did these apologetics take a major turn when the fraud was revealed?
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