Kinderhook Plates and Don Bradley

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Ridiculous apologetics of Jeff Lindsay: His 3rd sentence

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Jeff Lindsay continues his Kinderhook apologetics with this little number:

Jeff Lindsay wrote:So he may have been fooled for a while, enough to try figuring out a character's meaning, but after that there is no evidence that he showed any interest.

May have been fooled for a while? “May have”? Do you think? Oh come on man, he *WAS* fooled for quite a while -- actually for the rest of his life as were all those who believed him. Nobody ever refuted belief in the authenticity of the plates or questioned Smith’s translation. There is no evidence of that, none, whatsoever.

Smith had every interest in translating the Kinderhook plates as well as the Book of Joseph from the papyri as previously promised. But Smith just didn’t have time! He was totally immersed and overrun with the construction of the Nauvoo House and the Nauvoo Temple. Smith’s time was totally consumed with construction projects and managing Nauvoo and he just didn’t have time to translate plates and papyri.

It had nothing to do with lack of interest! It had everything to do with time management!
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Ridiculous apologetics of Jeff Lindsay

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And so, Lindsay continues his apologetic in an effort to excuse the prophet’s error in believing the plates were authentic and that he was capable of translating them.

Jeff Lindsay wrote:Bottom line: prophets can be fooled, for God doesn't take over their brains.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes. Nobody is perfect. And yes, Joseph Smith *was* fooled and remained fooled for the rest of his life!

Jeff Lindsay wrote:Joseph tried to use his brain to figure out a microscopic portion of the fake document he was given, with no claim to using divine power, and after that one attempt, it appears he felt no need to continue.

What are you talking about, Jeff? What microscopic portion? Are you referring to the single character posited by Don Bradley? Bear in mind that Joseph Smith examined both sides of six fake plates and determined that they contained a history of the person with whom they were found & he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt” It was also determined that the plates “contain the genealogy of one of the ancient Jaredites back to Ham the son of Noah” and so there was a great deal to translate from the fake plates!

And what evidence do you have, Jeff, that Joseph Smith claimed to be translating on his own without divine power? I suggest you read this thread and learn more about the prophet Joseph Smith and how he constantly claimed divine revelation in everything he did

Jeff Lindsay wrote:He apparently didn't feel there was any need to do any further work. That's pretty much the end of the story.

Well he apparently didn’t feel like he needed to do any further work with the papyri in translating the Book of Joseph as previously promised. End of story.

:roll:
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Corrections

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Scientific destructive testing performed in 1980 disproved incorrect observations made previously and confirmed the plates were not genuine. This changed the faith narrative; therefore, I will take the liberty to correct President Rick’s false statements to reflect reality in a manner of speaking. I need to use a little red ink to properly illustrate my point. If the moderator objects to this action then please let me know and I will change the color to something else.

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Welby Willis Ricks
February 2, 1918 - November 3, 2013

WELBY W. RICKS, PRESIDENT UNIVERSITY ARCHELOGICAL SOCIETY, BYU wrote:A recent discovery (later proven false) of one of the Kinderhook plates which was examined by Joseph Smith, Jun., reaffirms contradicts his prophetic calling and reveals the false true statements made by one of the finders.

What they found solved (nothing for) a seventy-four-year-old controversy and (failed to) put the plates back into the category of ‘genuine’ which Joseph Smith, Jun., had said they were in the first place.
WELBY W. RICKS, PRESIDENT UNIVERSITY ARCHELOGICAL SOCIETY, BYU wrote:The plates are now not back in their original category of genuine.

What scholars may learn from this ancient fake record in future years or what may be (falsely) translated by divine power is an exciting thought to contemplate is irrelevant and moot.

This much remains. Joseph Smith, Jun., stands as a true false prophet and translator of ancient records by divine lying means and all the world is invited to investigate the truth forgery which has sprung out of the earth not only of the Kinderhook plates, but of the Book of Mormon as well.
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Stanley B. Kimball

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Kinderhook Plates Brought to Joseph Smith Appear to Be a Nineteenth-Century Hoax
Stanley B. Kimball wrote:A recent electronic and chemical analysis of a metal plate (one of six original plates) brought in 1843 to the Prophet Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, Illinois, appears to solve a previously unanswered question in Church history, helping to further evidence that the plate is what its producers later said it was—a nineteenth-century attempt to lure Joseph Smith into making a translation of ancient-looking characters that had been etched into the plates.

The only real unanswered question was how to excuse Joseph Smith for being fooled and producing bogus translations. The answer was already given by a confessed forger (Fugate) who explained everything in a letter. It was the Mormons who refused to believe the truth, so the only real question that remained was “how could the prophet be fooled?”

What’s funny is the Mormons were mistaken on TWO points!! How so, you may ask?

1. Mormons (1843-1980 believed the plates were genuine.
2. Mormons (1886/1912-1980) believed the forger’s confession was a lie.

That’s twice the Mormons were wrong across the board through all the generations of the Church!

Stanley B. Kimball wrote:In fact, no evidence exists that he manifested any further interest in the plates after early examination of them, although some members of the Church hoped that they would prove to be significant. But the plates never did.

Mr. Kimball, I have a question for you: What evidence exists that Smith manifested a lack of interest in the Kinderhook plates after examining them? There is none! When did Smith ever say, “I don’t want to do this?” Look, I explained earlier in response to Jeff Lindsay’s apologetic that Smith didn’t have time because he was totally wrapped up in other affairs involving Church construction projects and legal matters. He didn’t even have time to translate the promised Book of Joseph. Look, the papyrus had been around a lot longer than the Kinderhook plates! You’d think the Book of Joseph would take precedence but he simply did not have time!

Do you understand that, Mr. Kimball?
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Nitpicky apologist

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Stanley B. Kimball wrote:In Nauvoo, Illinois, during the first week in May 1843, the Church publication Times and Seasons printed an article entitled “Ancient Records” which reported the alleged discovery of six ancient brass plates in an Indian mound near the town of Kinderhook, fifty-five miles south of Nauvoo in Pike County, Illinois.

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So, we see in the above map the town of Quincy within Adams County. To the south is Kinderhook in Pike County just twenty three miles away. The town of Kinderhook is only three miles south of the county line, thus the Indian mound burial was not far from the county line.

In spite of these very close proximities of distance between the places and counties in question the apologist attempts to magnify it by creating what seems to be a contradiction in statements made about the vicinity in which the plates were found. This is a subtle attempt to discredit the eyewitness accounts as if everyone is confused and nobody really knew what was going on:

Stanley B. Kimball wrote:It seems, then, that there was considerable talk about the plates in Nauvoo—and apparently as much misinformation and hearsay was current among people as there was fact. Pratt heard of a discovery in Pike County; Clayton said Adams County.

So, we are to understand that misinformation and hearsay are thrown into the mix when weighing the statements made by an apostle of the Church and President Smith’s personal secretary simply because there is a couple of miles if any from the distance of where the plates were found and where they were said to be found. They may just have well been found on the county line itself just south of Quincy. Thus, Kimball throws Pratt and Clayton under the bus for their inaccurate testimony. Away with them!

“Nothing to see here ... move along... move along.”
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Re: Nitpicky apologist

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Shulem wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:42 pm
So, we are to understand that misinformation and hearsay are thrown into the mix when weighing the statements made by an apostle of the Church and President Smith’s personal secretary simply because there is a...

...half a dozen feet difference in two statements:

Stanley B. Kimball wrote:It seems, then, that there was considerable talk about the plates in Nauvoo—and apparently as much misinformation and hearsay was current among people as there was fact. Pratt heard of a discovery in Pike County; Clayton said Adams County. Clayton said that the find was made six feet underground; Pratt, fifteen.

So, Kimball throws Clayton and Pratt under the bus because they described the depth of the dig with differing measurements in which the various elements and artifacts were found and uncovered.

Can you believe that?

“Nothing to see here ... move along... move along.”
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Re: Nitpicky apologist

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Shulem wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 11:42 pm
So, we are to understand that misinformation and hearsay are thrown into the mix when weighing the statements made by an apostle of the Church and President Smith’s personal secretary simply because...

...Pratt mentioned something that nobody else did:

Stanley B. Kimball wrote:It seems, then, that there was considerable talk about the plates in Nauvoo—and apparently as much misinformation and hearsay was current among people as there was fact. Pratt heard of a discovery in Pike County; Clayton said Adams County. Clayton said that the find was made six feet underground; Pratt, fifteen. Elder Pratt spoke of a cement vase—an item mentioned in no other account..

Oh, so we are given additional information and facts from those who were involved and gathering information about what happened. Line upon line and precept upon precept. A cement vase? Throw Pratt under the bus!

“Nothing to see here ... move along... move along.”
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Re: Nitpicky apologist

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Stanley B. Kimball wrote:Clayton mentioned a skeleton nine feet tall—also unmentioned in any other account.
=Stanley B. Kimball wrote:Clayton said that the plates gave a history of an Egyptian; Pratt mentioned a Jaredite.

Right. Right.

Line upon line and precept upon precept.
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Stanley B. Kimball’s fatal reasoning

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Stanley B. Kimball wrote:In fact, there is no evidence that Joseph Smith ever concluded the plates were genuine, other than conflicting statements from members who hoped that a translation would come forth—

And William Clayton’s journal entry is what, chopped liver? The early Latter-day Saints were chopped liver?

Look, Mr. Kimball, you’re confused and obviously trying to deceive your readers. You’re muddying the waters!
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Stanley B. Kimball’s fatal reasoning

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Stanley B. Kimball wrote:Significantly, there is no evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith ever took up the matter with the Lord, as he did when working with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham.

How in God’s name do you even know what Joseph Smith contemplated and prayed about on a daily basis in dealing with events that occurred during his life? Were you listening to Joseph’s prayers while he was privately addressing his Heavenly Father? Were you there in private councils and discussions that may have taken place referencing the Kinderhook plates? Joseph Smith had one year left to live and everything was winding down very quickly as he was overcome with his hectic life.

You were NOT there, Mr. Kimball! You know very little other than what you’ve expressed in your article tendered in the Church periodical. I’m sorry but I’m unimpressed with your apologetic tactics and faulty reasoning.
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