Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by dan vogel »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:54 pm
dan vogel wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:45 am
As to actual cities, Joseph Smith didn't care about the locations of his imaginary cities, because he didn't think that far into the future when archaeology would develop.

WHAT?! You don’t mean that.

Joseph Smith’s original claim was that he was a seer who can not only sense hidden treasure in the earth as you so well explain in your own writings, but understand past, present, and future. The future and the past was always on Smith’s mind as he understood God and the bible.

The Book of Mormon describes archeology taking place therein. The large, engraved stone of an ancient civilization uncovered in the midst of the ruins from former inhabitants of long ago.

Smith not only thought ahead but he thought behind too and covered his tracks for his present needs.
My point here is that while he knew the general areas of settlement, such as the Inca in Peru, the Olmec and Maya in Central America, the Aztecs in Mexico, and the Mound Builders of North America, Joseph Smith didn't worry about where he put specific cities. He didn't think anyone could challenge him, and he was right.
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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Years before Joseph ever dictated a single sentence of the Book of Mormon he planned to tell the story of how Cumorah in New York State was a final battlefield in which ancient wars were fought and how the original inhabitants living in regions of future America would build civilizations within a fluid zone of commerce and transport having distances of hundreds of miles. This would all take place within the promised land of America that was established by the founding fathers. To achieve this, Smith’s priority was to connect Cumorah with the Jaredite and Nephite regions in which they lived.

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Moksha
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Moksha »

The building of the Erie Canal with its barges, as well as Captain Cook's tales of buried treasures may have sparked Joseph's imagination.
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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:39 pm
The building of the Erie Canal with its barges, as well as Captain Cook's tales of buried treasures may have sparked Joseph's imagination.

Surely the canals and the terrain in which Smith lived and had knowledge of influenced him and he was capable of referring to a map or globe as well as anyone. Joseph knew the value of a walking or riding a mile whether by land or sea. He had a brilliant mind and was capable of comprehending area, space, distance, time, etc., as well as any young man could. He was intelligent and a very good showman. He was a great actor in real life.

I do believe you meant Captain Kidd, not Cook.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:55 pm
I do believe you meant Captain Kidd, not Cook.
Yes, thanks for reminding me. I hope today is not full of senior moments.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

dan vogel wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:04 pm
How far could Joseph Smith travel in twelve days?

A well-trained walker in good health can walk 20 miles in a day while taking breaks. A group of men, women, children, and animals will cover a lot less ground, especially through wilderness; probably half if that going at top speed. Now consider how Alma and his people left Helam and the valley of Alma and then made their way to Zarahemla in 12 days (2 days of no travelling on the sabbath). My little map (which I don’t claim is perfect) has Helam about 90 miles away from Zarahemla based on the scale at the bottom of the main map which is broken down into 5 mile increments. That seems like a reasonable distance to move a colony from Helam to Zarahemla in the time (10 days) allotted in the story. In fact, I see it as a bullseye! Right on the money, yeah baby!

Shulem wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:42 pm
10. VALLEY OF ALMA: Alma and his people departed into the wilderness; and when they had traveled all day they pitched their tents in a valley, and they called the valley Alma, because he led their way in the wilderness. And now the Lord said unto Alma: Haste thee and get thou and this people out of this land, for the Lamanites have awakened and do pursue thee; therefore get thee out of this land, and I will stop the Lamanites in this valley that they come no further in pursuit of this people. And it came to pass that they departed out of the valley, and took their journey into the wilderness. And after they had been in the wilderness twelve days they arrived in the land of Zarahemla;

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The Bottom Line

Post by Shulem »

Either Joseph Smith utilized the Delmarva peninsula as a working template for formulating geographical ideas and details for his story or he did not.

It’s either Yes or No:

[✓] YES
[✓] NO

I’ve demonstrated in another thread that Smith used great care and precision in keeping track of chronology and a timeline for the first 600 years of Book of Mormon history as he dictated stories with his face in a hat. This mindset leads us to also accept the idea that Smith also considered keeping track of geography and maintaining consistency with area and distance as it relates to time described within the narrative of the text. Both chronology and geography go hand in hand and are woven together within the fabric of the Book of Mormon.

[✓] Chronology
[✓] Geography

With that said, I know I’m right and my conclusion is totally backed by the text and the very mindset of Joseph Smith *when* and *as* he told the story. I hope others will catch the vision and put it together for themselves and cease being fooled by the great Mormon deception.

Wake up people! Snap out of it!
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

dan vogel wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:43 pm
So, in this passage, these are the major seas, not local seas. It is the only mention of a “sea north.” I don’t see this feature in your model
dan vogel wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:43 pm
Your land northward has no east sea.

Dan,

It would ne nice if you would take the time to read those long threads and understand that Joseph Smith was working with a doable geography just as he was a doable chronology. Please, give Joseph more credit than you do. He was not stupid and he knew the distance from the southern land of Nephi to Cumorah in New York and Sea North. Those points of interest are key points given in the story and traveling back and forth was part of the fluid zone (freely moving about back and forth) in which we understand Book of Mormon geography as given in the text. From Zarahemla to Cumorah and back!

Shulem wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 12:01 pm

A peninsula is NOT an island or an isthmus. A peninsula is “nearly surrounded by water” but an island is fully surrounded by water. The Book of Mormon describes a peninsula, NOT an isthmus, wherein Lehi’s landing is the southernmost point, nothing is ever said to be south other than “Sea South”. A peninsula is nearly surrounded by water and there are THREE seas specifically listed for the peninsula dwellers of the Book of Mormon that specifically describes the physical characteristic of that landform:

1. “Sea West”
2. “Sea East”
3. “Sea South”

Note, very importantly, for the land south of the narrow neck there is never mentioned a north sea in the text. As far as Lehi, Nephi, Alma, and the peninsula dwellers were concerned, there were THREE SEAS: sea west, sea east, sea south. The cardinal direction leading northward had no sea until traveling an exceedingly great distance north of the narrow neck beyond the land of Desolation, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water or the “sea north” in New York!

This is checkmate for the apologists beginning at square one. The apologists cannot account for Sea South. The apologists imagine an isthmus but in doing so they grant TWO seas, and deny the third! Go figure.

Checkmate!
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TIC-TAC-TOE

Post by Shulem »

The Book of Mormon wrote: BOUNTIFUL: even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful. And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation (borders of the land Bountiful; and Amalickiah did pitch his tents in the borders on the beach by the seashore) (fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward)

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The Book of Mormon wrote: LAND OF JERSHON: And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance . . . . in the land of Jershon, and the armies of the Nephites were set round about the land of Jershon, yea, in all the borders round about the land of Zarahemla; behold the armies of the Lamanites had followed their brethren into the wilderness. (army in the land of Jershon, lest by any means a part of the Lamanites should come into that land and take possession of the city, took the remaining part of his army and marched over into the land of Manti)

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The Book of Mormon wrote: MORONI: Nephites began the foundation of a city, and they called the name of the city Moroni; and it was by the east sea; and it was on the south by the line of the possessions of the Lamanites. (Lamanites had come into the land of Moroni, which was in the borders by the seashore.)

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Smith’s Isle

Post by Shulem »

Lehi sailed across the Atlantic ocean and made port at Delmarva which is nearly surrounded by sea. There on the southern tip of Virginia he made landfall. Maps used in Joseph Smith’s day designate the isle off the southeast tip of the peninsula as “Smith’s Isle” which was named after the famous English explorer, John Smith. To this day, the little island is still named “Smith Island”. Is this a coincidence? I don’t believe so. I think young Joseph guided an imaginary ship to a place that bore his name because that made him feel secretly special. What better place to have Lehi make port in the promised land than at a place that bore the prophet’s name?
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