Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:22 am
You have my attention! That sounds fascinating!

Yes, it’s fascinating and there are valid points to the argument in showing that Smith outsourced material and information to aid in constructing his own story and novel. It goes to show that he was interested in words and names abroad as well as right here in America as demonstrated by Vernal Holley.

I’m willing to make a concession. I’m willing to admit that it’s possible Smith was eyeing the Asian peninsula and names associated thereat BEFORE he ever dictated a word to Martin Harris and before he ever decided on Delmarva. I will agree that it’s possible that Smith borrowed ideas both geographical and textual from Asia in order to seed his American story. But in the end, he chose the Delmarva peninsula to serve as the promised land whereby it was necessary to bring ideas home in order for the plates to fall into his hands.

You see, Kishy, I can be reasonable. Right?
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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I would like to thank Physics Guy for an excellent post he provided down on the Terrestrial board. It deserves to be planted in this thread because it hits the nail on the head.

Physics Guy wrote:
Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:54 pm
As I understand Shulem's theory, it's not that Smith was trying to imply that his Nephites were on the Delmarva peninsula. Smith was trying to leave it vague as to where they were, so that nobody could prove his story fake. In order to help him keep his geography realistic and consistent, though, he used a real, nearby place as his own secret model.

Using a model geography like that is similar to the way an author may base a fictional character on a real acquaintance. It doesn't have to go as far as a roman à clef where the author wants everyone to recognize exactly which real person the character represents. So in a similar way, I think Shulem is saying, Smith based his Nephite geography on the Delmarva peninsula, even though he didn't mean for readers to conclude that the events really happened there.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Image

Shulem, I am wondering if novitiates of the Order of the Interpreter might be willing to debate you in defense of their Holy Book of Abraham. I know that is something you dearly desire and there is a possibility their novitiates might not fear you as their journeymen and masters do, due to their innocence. The masters in the all-brown Interpret/FAIR robes and the grand master with his golden miter would flee at your presence.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Moksha

Post by Shulem »

Believe it or not, debates and contests really aren’t something I enjoy doing. I’ve been a longtime critic out of necessity because it’s a job that needs to be done and, frankly, I’m quite good at it. And yes, I think you know that the mystery of Book of Mormon geography has been solved through my instrumentality. I’m fortunate to have been able to contribute such an amazing piece of detective work and present it on this board for a small group to analyze and consider. But as you can see, I’ve not been able to convince very many people and there has not been a major shift or acceptance leaning towards Delmarva as the only real solution. Critics and former members are generally skeptical and are careful not to get fooled all over again. And who can blame them?

Thank you, Moksha, for following along and keeping up. As you know, I’ve not revealed all my cards and am holding back and for good reason.

If I could, I would do a live podcast interviewing and debating elder Holland. That would be something I would enjoy doing and I can tell you now that I would destroy him. What you saw in the BBC interview was child’s play. Had I been the newsman in his office doing that interview it would have been absolute fireworks! Holland would have fallen apart completely and he would have been consumed.
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South

Post by Shulem »

Dear Readers,

Let’s try an experiment and see where it goes, shall we? Let’s suppose the Book of Mormon really is a historical record and there really was a Lehi that left Jerusalem and set sail for a land of promise in a place where Lehi could hardly imagine. For him, it was a promised land somewhere on God’s green earth and that he would be divinely taken to that place via the directional Liahona. So, let’s have some fun pretending the Book of Mormon is a historical book and see where it takes us.

Suppose Lehi is standing on the front steps of the temple at Jerusalem. He knows exactly where he is. He knows the four cardinal directions of the earth -- the rising of the sun to the east and its setting in the west. Lehi knows that Egypt and Africa are towards the great southwest and beyond. He knows that Babylon and Asia lie eastward and continue ever onward into the rising sun and beyond.

And now, Lehi looks south from the temple gate and sets his back towards Jerusalem, heading southward into Arabia until he finally reaches the sea. He knows the Arabian sea is a great body of water wherein the Red Sea flows and is known as the southern ocean to the inhabitants of Israel. From one perspective, all ocean water lies southward and the orientation of the Jerusalem temple is north.

So, Lehi now pushes out to sea to begin his voyage. There is only one direction in which Lehi can begin his voyage as he pushes out to sea, SOUTHWARD. We can now visualize Lehi sailing south with his back to the land and leaving his homeland forever.


To be continued...
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South

Post by Shulem »

The God of the Bible through the miraculous means of the directional Liahona must now take Lehi to the promised land. They have set their backs to Arabia and their homeland to the north. They sail south into the great ocean. With that, there are three ways this voyage can begin:

1. Continue south until such time a turn must be made
2. Begin to turn eastward
3. Begin to turn westward

Jehovah is known for exactness and strictness with regards to his directions. There is a right way and a wrong way. Blessings and consequences. Opposition in all things. And so, with that, there is choice that must be made for Lehi’s voyage as he leaves his homeland. Does he turn right or left? That is the question and it will be decided by the miraculous ball that leads them on their way. What would God have them do? Go right or left?

Well, the Bible does have a standard with regard to lifetime directions and spiritual implications therein. One might imagine how setting out to sea and not knowing where you are going with your back to the homeland must present a certain level of uncertainty coupled with apprehension. A choice must be made and God is going to make it for them! Do they turn right or left? What does the Bible say? How might the wisdom of Solomon suggest the Lord’s course for Lehi?

Ecclesiastes 10:2 wrote:A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.

Is it reasonable to think the Lord would have turned right in which they would have sailed westward? The Bible does have a curious preference to all things right wherein strength is found on that side, for example:

Ps 110:1 wrote:The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So, we can imagine God turning Lehi towards the right and leaving behind his homeland forever as he faces the setting sun on a long voyage to the promised land. All of this is simply figurative as we explore the way and direction in which Lehi left the Old World.


To be continued...
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Re: South

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Shulem wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:20 pm
Let’s try an experiment and see where it goes, shall we? Let’s suppose the Book of Mormon really is a historical record and there really was a Lehi that left Jerusalem and set sail for a land of promise in a place where Lehi could hardly imagine. For him, it was a promised land somewhere on God’s green earth and that he would be divinely taken to that place via the directional Liahona. So, let’s have some fun pretending the Book of Mormon is a historical book and see where it takes us.
A helpful experiment.
Shulem wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:20 pm
Suppose Lehi is standing on the front steps of the temple at Jerusalem. He knows exactly where he is. He knows the four cardinal directions of the earth -- the rising of the sun to the east and its setting in the west. Lehi knows that Egypt and Africa are towards the great southwest and beyond. He knows that Babylon and Asia lie eastward and continue ever onward into the rising sun and beyond.
You make a few assumptions here. Are you sure Lehi knew exactly where he was in the world, and that he understood the size and the shape of the landmasses and bodies of water? I doubt he would have known anything about Africa beyond Egypt, and he wouldn't have considered Egypt as sitting on a separate continent. He would have known very little about anything beyond the Persian Gulf, let alone of anything as far away as Asia. Here's what the world beyond the Euphrates would have looked like to Lehi:

https://www.worldhistory.org/image/526/ ... -the-world

Your experiment won't get us very far unless we start with the understanding that Lehi would have known very little about the world beyond Jerusalem. Anything beyond the Arabian Peninsula would have been an island in the sea, and anything beyond that would have been beyond comprehension.

One thing we do know is that Lehi would have known that Paradise was in the East. All ancients seem to have been drawn to the east, the source of the rising sun and the Garden of Eden.
Shulem wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:20 pm
Is it reasonable to think the Lord would have turned right in which they would have sailed westward? The Bible does have a curious preference to all things right wherein strength is found on that side, for example:
Nah. The Garden was in the east. The lost tribes went east. Sinim was in the east. Trade with Oman at that time was coming primarily from the east. There's probably a good reason why Nephi inserts "for the feet of those who are in the east shall be established" into Isaiah 49:13, following the verse mentioning the land of Sinim:

"And then, O house of Israel, behold, these shall come from far; and lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; for the feet of those who are in the east shall be established; and break forth into singing, O mountains; for they shall be smitten no more; for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted." 1 Nephi 21:13

You're going to need more than Ecclesiastes 10:2 to make the case that Lehi went west.
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Re: South

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Zosimus wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:43 pm
A helpful experiment.

Yes, a basic scientific approach and enquiry can be helpful.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:43 pm
You make a few assumptions here. Are you sure Lehi knew exactly where he was in the world, and that he understood the size and the shape of the landmasses and bodies of water?

I am sure that Lehi knew EXACTLY where he was in the world, JERUSALEM, on the front steps of the temple -- within the capitol of Israel. The sun rises and sets on the temple. He knew Egypt and Africa were to the southwest and Babylon and Asia were to the east. Any information he may have had or known about geography thereat or beyond was something he would have learned by secular means available to him in his day. I am sure that Lehi or an sober man living in Jerusalem at that time would have known his cardinal directions and have a general knowledge of the nations within the quadrants of known maps of the day. Knowledge of the great ocean to the south is whatever was available at the time. The Red Sea and Indian Ocean were known to be the great waters that lie to the south. That is all I am implying. Nothing more.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:43 pm
I doubt he would have known anything about Africa beyond Egypt, and he wouldn't have considered Egypt as sitting on a separate continent. He would have known very little about anything beyond to Persian Gulf let alone of anything as far away as Asia.

Why do you say that in reference to my statement? What are you arguing? I only mentioned that Lehi would have known of Egypt, Africa, Babylon, Asia, and BEYOND in a general way and any information or understanding he would have had would have been based on the secular knowledge available in that time. Cardinal directions, nations abroad, and the briny ocean to the south are the points of interest. THAT is what anyone, moreover a man of means such as Lehi would have known and understood.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:43 pm
Your experiment won't get us very far unless we start with the understanding that Lehi would have known very little about the world beyond Jerusalem. Anything beyond the Arabian Peninsula would have been an island in the sea, and anything beyond that would have been beyond comprehension.

Lehi in 600 BC would have known whatever was understood by secular maps and traveling documents available at that time. He was a man of means and would have had access to the latest information available. The Indian Ocean was the sea south, period.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:43 pm
One thing we do know is that Lehi would have known that Paradise was in the East. All ancients seem to have been drawn to the east, the source of the rising sun and the Garden of Eden.

All of that was myth in Lehi’s time. I can only wonder what people thought of the garden of Eden and where it was. But once Noah boarded the ark and floated about the waters for a long season, there is no telling exactly where the original east was once they landed on Ararat. I don’t think any of that really matters in this discussion. Eden has nothing to do with any of this.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:43 pm
You're going to need more than Ecclesiastes 10:2 to make the case that Lehi went west.

I don’t base my case on that point alone. I bring it up as an integer within an equation to reach a possible solution for a God fearing Jew.
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Re: South

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Shulem wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:38 am
Why do you say that in reference to my statement? What are you arguing? I only mentioned that Lehi would have known of Egypt, Africa, Babylon, Asia, and BEYOND in a general way and any information or understanding he would have had would have been based on the secular knowledge available in that time. Cardinal directions, nations abroad, and the briny ocean to the south are the points of interest. THAT is what anyone, moreover a man of means such as Lehi would have known and understood.
I say that because you are assuming that the ancients had some conception of a "beyond" or something that existed "abroad" across the briny ocean. That's not how they understood the world and maps as late as the 15th century AD show that.

Lehi would have understood that there was a single landmass surrounded by ocean, as a sort of disc. The assumption is usually made that Lehi and his family boarded their ship and sailed off into the deep blue sea, away from the coast, knowing that they would reach some other distant shore. Europeans up until the 15th century didn't even dare do that so its quite a stretch to argue that a desert-dwelling family from Jerusalem in the 6th century BC, that had never seen the ocean in their lives, would dare attempt it. To them the world would have looked like this:

Image
Shulem wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:38 am
Lehi in 600 BC would have known whatever was understood by secular maps and traveling documents available at that time. He was a man of means and would have had access to the latest information available. The Indian Ocean was the sea south, period.
No, look at the map above from the 5th century BC. There's no sea south. There's a single landmass in the shape of a disc and a single ocean surrounding it. With that (mis)understanding, who in their right mind would sail out into OCEAN away from sight of land? That's why nobody tried it until the 15th century. It was suicide. Here's the world according to Anaximenes, c. 500 BC with contemporary names of locations added:

Image

And this is Al-Masudi's map as late as the 10th century. Not much different than the 5th century BC, just that the land disc was bigger.

Image

I don't see Lehi sitting in his boat, as it sails away from the only disc of land the ancients knew, trying to decide whether to turn right or left.
Shulem wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:38 am
All of that was myth in Lehi’s time. I can only wonder what people thought of the garden of Eden and where it was. But once Noah boarded the ark and floated about the waters for a long season, there is no telling exactly where the original east was once they landed on Ararat. I don’t think any of that really matters in this discussion. Eden has nothing to do with any of this.
The Garden of Eden wasn't myth to a Hebrew in the 6th century BC, and they knew it was in the east, towards the rising sun. The flood didn't change the direction of the rising sun or cardinal directions.

Sorry, the location of paradise had everything to do with directions in Judeo-Christian cartography until the Middle Ages. Even Columbus was trying to find the opposite side of paradise, by sailing west instead of east. Finding the Garden of Eden in ASIA was one of his primary motivations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2j8js4O-9A
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Re: South

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Zosimus wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:54 am
I say that because you are assuming that the ancients had some conception of a "beyond" or something that existed "abroad" across the briny ocean. That's not how they understood the world and maps as late as the 15th century AD show that.

I was merely assuming that the ancients had a conception that SOMETHING/ANYTHING, was beyond the briny ocean. What had not been discovered or mapped was a mystery. But something was beyond the unknown which was the course in which Lehi was undertaking.

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:54 am
Lehi would have understood that there was a single landmass surrounded by ocean, as a sort of disc. The assumption is usually made that Lehi and his family boarded their ship and sailed off into the deep blue sea, away from the coast, knowing that they would reach some other distant shore. Europeans up until the 15th century didn't even dare do that so its quite a stretch to argue that a desert-dwelling family from Jerusalem in the 6th century BC, that had never seen the ocean in their lives, would dare attempt it. To them the world would have looked like this:

Image

I am not overly concerned about what Lehi understood as a landmass and the ocean or the world map of his day. What concerns me in this particular exercise is what a pious Jew might think when pushing off the southern coast and wondering what direction GOD will send him via a magical compass. Further south? Turn right? Turn left? And with that, what symbolic implications might a superstitious/pious Jew have in making such a turn?

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:54 am
No, look at the map above from the 5th century BC. There's no sea south. There's a single landmass in the shape of a disc and a single ocean surrounding it. With that (mis)understanding, who in their right mind would sail out into OCEAN away from sight of land? That's why nobody tried it until the 15th century. It was suicide. Here's the world according to Anaximenes, c. 500 BC

Image

I think we can agree that as Lehi stands on the temple mount looking south and contemplating the sea that lies south -- the Indian ocean is towards the south, period. It certainly is not to the north! The whole purpose of this exercise is to understand how they left Jerusalem and traveled south until they reached the ocean. And that ocean is south of Jerusalem regardless of what a map might indicate because the cardinal directions are always a constant. What is beyond the ocean makes no difference other than they are led to the promised land.

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:54 am
I don't see Lehi sitting in his boat, as it sails away from the only disc of land the ancients knew, trying to decide whether to turn right or left.

Zosimus, do please read my posts more carefully and understand that it was not Lehi trying to decide where to turn. It was the magic ball (Liahona) that determined or decided when and where they would turn. It was simply a matter of following the direction of the ball. These are the choices that the ball made via GOD:

1. Continue south until such time a turn must be made
2. Begin to turn eastward
3. Begin to turn westward

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:54 am
The Garden of Eden wasn't myth to a Hebrew in the 6th century BC, and they knew it was in the east, towards the rising sun. Noah and the flood didn't change the direction of the rising sun.

The garden of Eden is a myth to you and me. What Lehi (assuming there really was a Lehi as this exercise is about) thought of Eden really makes little difference. This thread is about going SOUTH.

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 1:54 am
Sorry, the location of paradise had everything to do with directions in Judeo-Christian cartography until the Middle Ages. Even Columbus was trying to find the opposite side of paradise, by sailing west instead of east. Finding the Garden of Eden in ASIA was one of his primary motivations.

Zosimus, please pay attention. Columbus set his own compass and did his own thing in 1492. That’s entirely a different story.

Lehi was commanded to follow the directions on the ball and go wherever it pointed. That is the point of this exercise. Which direction did God want him to go? Right or left? The decision was God’s, not Lehi’s!

[ ] Right
[ ] Left
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