Book of Mormon Geography

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Laman Knight
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Laman Knight »

Well. I'm guessing Zosimus has a fascinating tidbit or two in reserve. I mean I'd be really impressed if he displayed an old Dutch or English map of Java or Sumatra with a place called "Lamanite" on it. I admit that may or may not be relevant but let's see. Anyhow I'm guessing it is far too early for Shulem to rest his entire case.

I think there is a lot to be gained from Zosimus' hypothesis, in particular shedding a light on the otherwise rather neglected existence of both Israelite and Christian settlements on both sides of the Bay of Bengal as well as in Nusantara. It would be interesting to know what Joseph's contemporaries and near contemporaries may have known about kindred matters and why it mattered to them. Because it might matter to us.

Shulem wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:19 pm
Zosimus wrote:
Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:10 pm


Its my opinion that the Book of Mormon is a genuine work of historical fiction.

Thank you.

Then it follows that Smith needed to know the geographical landform and the topography of Malay in which to base his stories. If he chose Malay to be the promised land then he would have consulted a map before proceeding. Seas, rivers, bodies of water, narrow neck, etc.

So, show me that map, please. Modern maps are irrelevant.
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Zosimus
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 8:51 am

I’m sorry but I feel it’s pointless to continue a discussion with someone who refuses to accept the author’s description of a river that ends in a western sea where the bones of men are buried.
No problem. It’s too bad we didn’t get a chance to look at the maps. Ah well. As Maroni (the Malay treasure guardian conjured up by the Parisian-educated juggler Luman Walters) might say, ADIEU!
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Zosimus
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Re: River Sidon at Delmarva

Post by Zosimus »

Laman Knight wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 9:38 am
I mean I'd be really impressed if he displayed an old Dutch or English map of Java or Sumatra with a place called "Lamanite" on it.
Hah had forgot that one

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Shulem
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Lamanite

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:38 am
Image

:lol:

(Excuse me, please)

Nobody here is questioning the assertion that Smith fished for names from various sources. That’s a given.

Lamanite = Sangi Lama! ;) (see map below)

Finding the name “Lamanite” on an old map of the island of Sumatra is fascinating to say the least. But that’s an island and we know the Lamanites lived on what was a peninsula that adjoined the continent that led to the hill Cumorah in which the plates were buried. The plates were passed from person to person as described in the narrative until Moroni finally ditched them in New York after the war. There are no other voyages described in the text by which the plates were taken from an Asian island or peninsula. I’m afraid that is a fantasy, your fantasy, so it seems.


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https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueM ... ovost-1749
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Zosimus
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:11 pm
There are no other voyages described in the text by which the plates were taken from an Asian island or peninsula. I’m afraid that is a fantasy, your fantasy, so it seems.
Shulem, you keep referring to Asia and Malay as if it's some sort of outlier with nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. So I'll repeat this.

In 1828, Samuel Mitchell confirmed to Martin Harris that the characters of the Book of Mormon were of a nation now extinct, and he named that nation. I've shared a link to the very thorough research done by Richard Bennett on this. Richard Bennett proposes that Samuel Mitchell had told Martin Harris that the characters of the Book of Mormon were Malay. No doubt Martin Harris then went back to Joseph Smith and told Joseph that the great Samuel Mitchell had confirmed that the characters were ... Malay. I've shared screengrabs above confirming that the Malay Peninsula used to be called Kamarah and the founder of Kamarah was named Maroni.

Think about it.

Joseph Smith had validation from one of America's leading scholars that his chicken scratches were Malay. Bingo! Joseph then borrowed the names of Cumorah and Moroni -- and a few others like Comron and Cumr and Morianton and Ramah and Sidon [1] -- from pirate tales and Arab geographies. Should we then be surprised to find that he also borrowed the template for his peninsula from the same sources?

I expect your response to this would be "I don't care what a dodo apologist like Richard Bennett says" or "Malay isn't America so its DOA"

If that's the case, then let's just agree to disagree, because you've already said you don't see the point in continuing.

-----

[1] Sidon was the name of an island/peninsula in the Indian Ocean in Arabic accounts
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Moksha
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Moksha »

Image

This reads a bit like Trumpian fan fiction. "The like of whose comeliness and beauty he had never seen."
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Zosimus
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Zosimus »

Moksha wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 3:17 pm
This reads a bit like Trumpian fan fiction. "The like of whose comeliness and beauty he had never seen."
I linked to that account because the footnote explains the toponym of the Kingdom of Sidon was possibly related to Hebrew. The historical Sidon mentioned in these geographies was adjacent to the Malay Peninsula possibly even on the peninsula since the earliest name for the river basin in the center of the peninsula was Sundun. Chinese texts tell of people from the Middle East or Persia, scholars believe they were Christians, living here in the 3rd century AD. There is still a Sidon River in that area on the maps.

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In summary, during the Book of Mormon timeframe (6th century BC to 5th century AD) there was a kingdom named Kamarah with Christians from the Middle East on a peninsula with a narrow neck of land. There was a River Sidon and a mountain called Komoriyya named after a Biblical clan dating to the time of the tower that sailed there in boats modeled after Noahs ark (source). The most recognizable historical figure in Kamarah during the Book of Mormon time period was named Maroni. It all dates to the right centuries and the geography fits better than any other model.

Even if it is all a coincidence, it's pretty impressive Joseph Smith was able to randomly pull the names of historical kingdoms, characters, mountains and rivers all centered on a specific real-world geography dating to the right time out of his hat.

Like it or not, the Malay model is the best fit for the Book of Mormon geography.
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Moksha
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Moksha »

One thing seems certain, there is more actual support for the Malay and Delmarva hypotheses than the Mesoamerican hypothesis hawked by the Provo apologists. Plus neither of you insists that the Book of Mormon is actual history, which has tied the Provo group up with finding ridiculous parallels and making unsupported claims.

If the Provo group could only say to the academic world, "This is our sacred story" rather than "This is our alternative history", they would not be so at loggerheads with reality.
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bill4long
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by bill4long »

"Prophet, seer, and revelator" Nelson could just drop the stone in a hat, ask God, and clear this all up.

Maybe time to start a letter-writing campagne?

#RevelationNow
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Marcus
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Marcus »

Zosimus wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:24 pm
Shulem wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:11 pm
There are no other voyages described in the text by which the plates were taken from an Asian island or peninsula. I’m afraid that is a fantasy, your fantasy, so it seems.
Shulem, you keep referring to Asia and Malay as if it's some sort of outlier with nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. So I'll repeat this.

In 1828, Samuel Mitchell confirmed to Martin Harris that the characters of the Book of Mormon were of a nation now extinct, and he named that nation. I've shared a link to the very thorough research done by Richard Bennett on this. Richard Bennett proposes that Samuel Mitchell had told Martin Harris that the characters of the Book of Mormon were Malay. No doubt Martin Harris then went back to Joseph Smith and told Joseph that the great Samuel Mitchell had confirmed that the characters were ... Malay. I've shared screengrabs above confirming that the Malay Peninsula used to be called Kamarah and the founder of Kamarah was named Maroni.

Think about it.

Joseph Smith had validation from one of America's leading scholars that his chicken scratches were Malay. Bingo! Joseph then borrowed the names of Cumorah and Moroni -- and a few others like Comron and Cumr and Morianton and Ramah and Sidon [1] -- from pirate tales and Arab geographies. Should we then be surprised to find that he also borrowed the template for his peninsula from the same sources?
Well, yes. It’s not necessarily good logic to assume that because Smith liked and borrowed names, he had to have also used the area geography. The two may be correlated, but one doesn’t imply the other.

Shulem has very thoroughly made the case that Smith used a piece of geography from a map he was familiar with as a prompt, like a physical variation on Davis' idea of leads, to set out and guide you his story.

Just because he cribbed names from one story doesn’t mean he couldn’t have used a map from elsewhere also. He took ideas from many places to pull things together, we've seen that in the Bible commentaries, in other pseudo-biblical writings, his father's dreams, etc etc etc.

To insist that things must come from only one source, in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise, is insupportable, in my opinion.
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