Book of Mormon Geography

[Shulem]

Remember America didn't really have a western or southern boundary in the 1820s. The Lewis and Clark Expedition was only a few years previous. Etienne Provost passed through the area now known as Provo Utah just 5 years previous to the publication of the Book of Mormon. That same decade the first Americans arrived in Hawaii, which wouldn't become part of the United States of America for another 129 years. Alaska was Russian and Arizona and Utah were a part of Mexico.

Point being, Joseph Smith wouldn't have been very dogmatic about "America" when the Book of Mormon was being written.

Zosimus,

I do not share your perspective of the land of promise in which the Gentiles ruled.

1828 MAP OF THE UNITED STATES AND MANIFEST DESTINY

[Shulem]

Point being, Joseph Smith wouldn't have been very dogmatic about "America" when the Book of Mormon was being written.

On the contrary my friend, Joseph was extremely dogmatic about “America” when he dictated how important the land of promise was while his face was buried in a hat. The message of the Book of Mormon is all about America and the rise of a choice seer in whom would be raised up in the last days to preside over Zion which is the choice land of America where the white Gentiles live.

[Shulem]

he claimed Lehi landed in Chile

Joseph would have based his understanding of where Chile was physically located by perusing the map of his day. As you can see in the maps below, Chile is further south during the 1820’s and during the prophet’s lifetime. Later, in the 1880’s, Chile extended northward as it is today. In Joseph’s day, the northern border of Chile was 500 miles further south which puts it that much farther from Panama. Now you have a bigger problem, Dan. Try fitting the geography explained in the Book of Mormon into this model and it stretches the imagination to the breaking point. Lehi’s landing is down in the regions of Chile which is thousands of miles from Panama! The land of Nephi, Zarahemla, and Bountiful would have to be spaced in northern countries such as Peru, Columbia, and Brazil. The idea is utterly insane and contradicts Book of Mormon text as I’ve explained earlier. Joseph Smith did NOT plan that or envision that when he prepared his story for dictation.

I’m afraid, Dan, your Panama theory has zero merit and no support from Book of Mormon text. Your entire theory is based on afterthought! It’s DOA.

GIF time lapse map of the history of South America

Watch the map change before your eyes in time lapse from 1700 - 2000

[Shulem]

In my opinion, the nation that Mitchell identified as the source of the characters on the Anthon Transcript, would be the nation that Joseph and Harris used as their template in the 116 pages.

Zosimus,

In my opinion, Joseph had already formulated the basis of his story years before he ever dictated a word to Martin Harris or traced characters from imaginary gold plates. Mother Smith’s autobiography gives us every reason to believe Joseph had ideas while growing up on his farm in Palmyra. You do realize your theory is based on a missing manuscript and a missing name from characters that came after Joseph had long contemplated origin stories for the native Americans?

[Shulem]

When Joseph Smith says the American Continent, you must remember he claimed Lehi landed in Chile...

i must have missed that day in Seminary. Do you have a reference i can read that documents that Joseph Smith himself said Lehi landed in Chile?

Didn’t you get the memo? Lehi was sailing on the 30th parallel and crashed into Chile. They were forced to plant all their seeds and settle down thousands of miles away from the promised land. Lehi was so upset about missing the mark he died before he could make his trek northward and pay homage to the land that would produce the chosen seer of the last days. Apparently, Lehi died an unhappy man not just because he knew his oldest sons would be turned dark like a flint but he never would get to see “This wee sweet land of liberty”. Poor Lehi died a failure because he dreamed of “Sweet land of liberty” and pined for the “Land of the pilgrim's pride.”

So sad. Lehi failed and Nephi never even made it to the narrow neck wherein he could see Sea North.

[Shulem]

I’m afraid, Dan, your Panama theory has zero merit and no support from Book of Mormon text. Your entire theory is based on afterthought! It’s DOA.

I’m not trying to beat a dead horse or ram it down anybody’s throat. I want to be as nice as I can here in this forum. But really, my entire reading and understanding of Book of Mormon geography as explained in the texts makes it impossible for Joseph Smith to have visualized Lehi having landed in Chile while telling the story. Smith understood basic math and calculations in which to make sense and mix chronology with space and time. I am of the understanding he even owned a math book: “First Lines in Arithmetic, for the Use of Young Scholars.”

The following points illustrate with crystal clarity that the land of Nephi and cities in the adjoining regions not too far distant had direct association and connections to the East Sea. The hemispheric model contradicts Book of Mormon math, makes no sense, and flies in the face of logic and reason as outlined in the text.

• Sea East

• East Sea

And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.

And the land of Nephi did run in a straight course from the east sea to the west

And it came to pass that the Nephites began the foundation of a city, and they called the name of the city Moroni; and it was by the east sea; and it was on the south by the line of the possessions of the Lamanites.

And thus he was endeavoring to harass the Nephites, and to draw away a part of their forces to that part of the land, while he had commanded those whom he had left to possess the cities which he had taken, that they should also harass the Nephites on the borders by the east sea, and should take possession of their lands as much as it was in their power, according to the power of their armies

And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea west to the sea east.

And thus it did come to pass that the people of Nephi began to prosper again in the land, and began to build up their waste places, and began to multiply and spread, even until they did cover the whole face of the land, both on the northward and on the southward, from the sea west to the sea east.

Dan,

Show me the east sea/sea east as it relates to Chile and cities described in chronological order as outlined in the text.

Show me that sea!

[dan vogel]

Shulem:
Dan,

Show me the east sea/sea east as it relates to Chile and cities described in chronological order as outlined in the text.

Show me that sea!

I don't follow your logic here. Lehi landed on the coast of Chile. I'm not advocating the limited Chile theory. Chile is the landing place, then Nephi moved north to Zehahemla, which would be Peru where the ruins were located.

[dan vogel]

Shulem:
The white and delightsome Gentiles come to America to colonize. It’s NOT South America, BUT North America, the one up north which is the land of promise. The white and delightsome Gentiles are going to scatter the American Indians and show them the backdoor because they are taking over the promised land.

The focus in on North America, specifically the US, but the Bible-believing Gentiles scattered the Indians in North, Central, and South America. All the Indians were Lamanites, not just those in the north.

[Shulem]

Shulem:
Dan,

Show me the east sea/sea east as it relates to Chile and cities described in chronological order as outlined in the text.

Show me that sea!

I don't follow your logic here. Lehi landed on the coast of Chile. I'm not advocating the limited Chile theory. Chile is the landing place, then Nephi moved north to Zehahemla, which would be Peru where the ruins were located.

Dan,

You’re welcome to use the Book of Mormon and specify exact text therein to explain your reasoning. Don’t appeal to authority such as the Pratts. I don’t care what they (church rats) said. I don’t care what Joseph Smith said after the fact! Really Dan, you have nothing. You have no case in which to show your model is based on what Smith visualized when telling his story.

I don’t mean to be rude or put you down, but you’ve lost all credibility with me and I simply cannot carry on a logical conversation with you with regard to Book of Mormon geography. I trust you understand my position. And, I wish you all the best in your endeavors and hope any future podcasts or presentations you make on this subject are an improvement to what you’ve given on this board. Please know, you can expect I will offer a critique if I feel so inclined.

[Moksha]

It would be fun to have a similar GIF timeline of Delmarva from the arrival of the Jaredites to Moroni's demise at the Hill Cumorah.

Maybe even a similar GIF of the Curloms and Cumoms gathering up all traces of the Nephite civilization for burial at sea to honor their fallen fictional comrades.



To create peace, why don't we postulate that the Cumoms first landed at Utah Beach in Chile, while placing the Curlom invasion a few years later at a nearby location? Within a decade they began a northward trek to Delmarva to await and prepare for the prophesized coming of the Lehite Voyage of Discovery.