Book of Mormon Geography

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Zosimus
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

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Shulem wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:37 pm
What mainly concerns me is the very text of the book.
You say this often, but then you chase it with comments like:
Shulem wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:37 pm
It’s clear to me that while Smith was dictating the story of Jesus in America, he fully intended to expand his mission as a prophet and start a new church. The statement Jesus made to the Nephites (“I will establish my church among them”) in a New Jerusalem is evidence enough to reveal Smith’s true intentions. Who else was to establish a church other than Joseph the son of Joseph who was born in the land of promise among the Lamanites according to prophecy?
Sorry, but none of this is in the text. Nearly everything you post is about Joseph Smith and his plans, or motivations, influences, ideas or intentions.

None of that is the very text of the book.

Frankly, this is why this discussion about geography here has been very difficult to follow. It seems you're more interested in the intentions of Joseph Smith then you are the text of the Book of Mormon. I have participated in that discussion, but at some point, its a dead end. If we are going to continue this conversation about Book of Mormon Geography, let's shelve the mind-reading. Neither of us know what Joseph was thinking 200 years ago.
Shulem wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 3:37 pm
There is no question in my mind that Joseph planned to start a new church even before he finished dictating the Book of Mormon but wasn’t sure how or exactly when that would happen. Smith was doing things on the fly.
Case in point. It doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with Book of Mormon geography, or at least it shouldn't. Its not in the text. Its mind reading.
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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Moksha wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:55 pm
Shulem wrote:
Mon Jul 25, 2022 6:41 pm
[2] Smith imagined a specific place on the map where Lehi landed and where Zarahemla was built in order to aid him in telling a story.

Think about that!
Makes sense in terms of Joseph being able to give starting points, geographical directions, and estimated travel times.

It makes sense that an author creating fiction with sagas galore would need a support structure in which to build stories based on points of interest coupled with directions and time, otherwise the story can easily fall into chaos and have inconsistencies in which the numbers will fail to add up in making the story prove genuine. It makes perfect sense that Smith would need a genuine map on which to build his stories and keep track of the basic elements involving points of interest, geographical directions, and timing in which spaces are traversed by human migration and transport. Obviously, Smith spent a great deal of effort keeping track of the chronology and various timelines so why not the geography?

Everyone (believer and unbeliever) agrees that Smith understood the locations of the original starting points beginning with Jerusalem and ending at the Arabian coast. But everyone is not in agreement with how Smith understood (in his own mind) which direction Lehi went after leaving Arabia or whether Smith even considered those directions. But why wouldn’t he? Why would Smith not consider or imagine the very destination of where Lehi landed on a map or globe available to him while the whole process of creating the Book of Mormon took place? It makes little sense that Smith did not consult his own maps in contemplating where the ship landed and where to begin the story of the Book of Mormon in the New World.

I believe that Smith took all that into consideration within the privacy of his own mind and needed the support structure of a physical map in which to keep his story straight and consistent in order to maintain a rational and consistent geographical pattern. It makes no sense that Smith would have created a geography that does not match the actual map in his possession!
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

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Zosimus wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:39 pm
Its mind reading.

And that is exactly what I am doing.

:idea:
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

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Shulem wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:08 pm
Zosimus wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:39 pm
Its mind reading.

And that is exactly what I am doing.

:idea:
Do you ever find yourself using the expression, Eenie meanie chili beanie, the spirits are about to speak?
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem wrote:
Fri Apr 28, 2023 4:03 pm
I believe that Smith took all that into consideration within the privacy of his own mind and needed the support structure of a physical map in which to keep his story straight and consistent in order to maintain a rational and consistent geographical pattern. It makes no sense that Smith would have created a geography that does not match the actual map in his possession!

Can anyone reason how Joseph Smith dictated the story of Ether without first looking at a map in order to get his story straight and determine how to get Jared to the land of the future New Jerusalem that Ether foresaw in chapter thirteen? Bear in mind that Smith had not yet conceived of Missouri being where Adam lived until 1831. But he did imagine the New Jerusalem, a holy city would be built in North America -- the very spot of land in which Jared and Lehi personally received for their own inheritances -- but not too far from Cumorah. And that land was not South America! Please recall what Mormon Jesus told the Nephites when visiting them in Bountiful about the building of the New Jerusalem and where it would be built and by whom! Vogel, snap out of it! Wake up! You are a victim of Joseph Smith’s great coverup and I’m trying to tell you his secret but you just don’t get it.

So, does anyone really think Smith pulled it off without looking at a map? I don’t think so! Smith peeked at a map and determined Lehi’s route before he ever set sail -- and landed at the tip of Delmarva near ‘Smith Island’.
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This Land of Promise

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Nephi’s perspective of a Land of Promise was limited in size, scope, and geography. Take for example how he perceived the territorial region inherited by the twelve tribes of Israel after leaving Egypt. The Promised Land in the Old World hemisphere consisted only of the land of Canaan and none else! Nephi reminded his brethren how the children of Israel crossed the river Jordan and drove out “the children of this land, who were in the land of promise (1 Nephi 17:32,33). Thus, the land of promise” was the very land of Canaan. The only promised land on the face of the entire earth was the holy land! All other adjoining lands hither and thither were not the Promised Land!

The author of the Book of Mormon understood how the Promised Land in the Old World was limited in size. He also understood how the Promised Land in the New World was limited in size insomuch as it was inhabited by those who inherited it beginning with Jared and then Lehi. Mormon apologists who embrace a limited geographical model understand that dimensions for the Promised Land occupied by Book of Mormon peoples consisted of a region roughly in size of 200 x 400 miles. It is calculated and shown within the internal workings of the text that Lehi’s land of inheritance (far south) is no more than 400 miles from the final battle fought at Cumorah to the far north.

*That* is the Promised Land *in* the Book of Mormon. What may be termed *after* publication of the Book of Mormon is irrelevant, which seems to be Vogel’s stumbling block. Therefore, it’s important to understand that this 200 x 400 area of land in which Lehi and Jared physically stood upon is the very land in question. Find that land and you have the original land of promise.

More to come.
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Re: Here come the Jews!

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Prophetic Nephi (1 Nephi 22) expounds on the prophesies of Isaiah about how the House of Israel consisting of the twelve tribes, moreover the Jews, would be scattered and confounded among all nations of the earth but Israel and the Jews would be gathered in by a mighty Gentile nation (USA) that would be raised up upon the face of this land in the New World. We are also informed how a marvelous work will take place among the Gentiles and that God’s covenants and gospel will be made anew with the house of Israel insomuch as the Jews will also inherit the original land of promise in the Old World and come to a knowledge of their Savior and Redeemer. But prior to that, the mighty Gentile nation (USA) would scatter the seed of Nephi (American Indians) but they too would be gathered in and nursed by the Gentiles and blessed by the marvelous work.

The point I wish to stress is that Jews will be gathered into both Promised Lands, America and Israel. During Joseph Smith’s lifetime there were Jews in America and the Indians (seed of Nephi) were being scattered but the promise was they would soon be gathered. So, in that respect those prophecies were being fulfilled but the gathering in Palestine was yet to occur.

The main point I wish to stress is that Nephi stated categorically that Jews and his seed would be gathered upon the very land in which he lived -- the Promised Land which is the United States of America during Joseph Smith’s ministry. Now, hold that thought and ask yourself what kind of gathering of Jews ever took place in Mexico or in South America? The gathering of Jews in Smith’s day was in America proper which was the Promised Land in which Nephi lived.

Therefore, that 200 x 400 tract of land may be found only in the United States of America!
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Zosimus
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem wrote:
Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:28 pm
Can anyone reason how Joseph Smith dictated the story of Ether without first looking at a map in order to get his story straight and determine how to get Jared to the land of the future New Jerusalem that Ether foresaw in chapter thirteen?
in my opinion the story we find in the Book of Ether comes from a handful of Arabic geographies that would have been known to anyone interested in Egyptian lore, including Luther Bradish, a resident of Palmyra and friend of Martin Harris. For example, here is one passage from the Akhbar al Zaman:

"A branch of the family of Amur, son of Japheth, separated and went to China. The leader of this tribe built vessels on the model of the ark of Noah, his grandfather, in which all his family embarked; they crossed the sea, reached China, multiplied, built cities, and there developed the sciences and arts, and exploited its gold mines. This leader reigned three hundred years."

Arabic writers knew this Biblical family as the Kumr. The naming of the Comoros Islands, and a mountain in Egypt called Komoriyya, is attributed to them. in my opinion this is where we get the toponym Moriancumr in the Book of Mormon. Of course its also the name Joseph gave to the Brother of Jared.

Here's another passage from Ibn Said al Maghribi's "Book of maps of the seven climes"

"There are towns and inhabited countries that are part of the island of Komr, which are not known. The only city mentioned is the former capital of the island. At times, the ruler of this town ruled most of the island; this capital is Komoriyya . It is 154° long, over a vast gulf that stretches three degrees in length from the equator and about equal width. This town takes its name from the Kumr which descend from Amur son of Japheth. The Chinese are related to them by Amur. [The Kumr] lived with the Chinese in the eastern parts of the earth. Discord having arisen between them, the Chinese drove them to the islands and they remained there [in these islands] for a while. The title of their king was Kamrun....Dominating the town of Komoriyya is the mountain which takes its name from it."

Note: Comron is also a toponym in the Book of Mormon, also in the vicinity of Ramah/Cumorah.

The story of the Jaredites (the clan of Moriancumr) is a riff on the the story of the Kumr. The Book of Mormon geography is set in Komoriyya, 154° long, over a vast gulf that stretches three degrees in length from the equator and about equal width.
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

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Zosimus wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:39 pm
Frankly, this is why this discussion about geography here has been very difficult to follow. It seems you're more interested in the intentions of Joseph Smith then you are the text of the Book of Mormon.
Seems like intention would influence methodology which in turn would affect the output.
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Zosimus
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

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Moksha wrote:
Mon May 01, 2023 8:03 am
Seems like intention would influence methodology which in turn would affect the output.
Fair enough. Its just that I'm unconvinced Joseph was the sole author so I find it difficult to connect the dots. But I'm sure my stuff is heaps worse : D
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