Book of Mormon Geography

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huckelberry
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by huckelberry »

I did not read this entire exchange, it is long. I did get the impression that Zosimus is discussing an understanding of what a real group of people who took a real journey did. Shulem is talking about the devices used by an author creating a fictional story.

These two are not likely to come together.

I am open to being corrected.
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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:32 pm
I did not read this entire exchange, it is long. I did get the impression that Zosimus is discussing an understanding of what a real group of people who took a real journey did. Shulem is talking about the devices used by an author creating a fictional story.

These two are not likely to come together.

I am open to being corrected.

Whether one believes the Book of Mormon is fiction or nonfiction, there remains the issue of how the author (Smith or God) planned on having Moroni leave Zarahemla and bury the plates at Cumorah in New York State. The entire premise of the gold plates representing the ancient civilization ends at Cumorah. If you believe the Book of Mormon is nonfiction, then you must also believe that God had a plan for Lehi to sail and reach the continental shelf of America whereby his descendants could spread out and eventually claim New York as the last stop in the story. On the other hand, if you believe the book is fiction, then you must reason that Joseph Smith had a plan to get Lehi to America whereby his descendants could bury the plates in New York.
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Moksha
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:02 pm
If you believe the Book of Mormon is nonfiction, then you must also believe that God had a plan for Lehi to sail and reach the continental shelf of America whereby his descendants could spread out and eventually claim New York as the last stop in the story.
What if apologists took the position that God whisked Joseph away to a second Cumorah in either Mexico or Malaysia to retrieve the ancient gold plates and had him reappear at the exact spot where he was originally beamed up?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Shulem
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Beam me up

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:04 am
Shulem wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:02 pm
If you believe the Book of Mormon is nonfiction, then you must also believe that God had a plan for Lehi to sail and reach the continental shelf of America whereby his descendants could spread out and eventually claim New York as the last stop in the story.
What if apologists took the position that God whisked Joseph away to a second Cumorah in either Mexico or Malaysia to retrieve the ancient gold plates and had him reappear at the exact spot where he was originally beamed up?

With a transporter device, all things are possible.

Captain Moroni wrote: Beam me from Asia to New York, now please.

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Mr. Mormon wrote: But that would be thousands of miles away, captain. Wouldn't that be a bit risky?

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Bones wrote: My God, I hope we don't lose the captain.

Image
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Zosimus
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Zosimus »

Moksha wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 6:04 am
What if apologists took the position that God whisked Joseph away to a second Cumorah in either Mexico or Malaysia to retrieve the ancient gold plates and had him reappear at the exact spot where he was originally beamed up?
Shulem wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:21 pm
With a transporter device, all things are possible.
No need. It's a simple solution really.

Maroni (a title given to warrior chiefs in the ancient kingdom of Kedah) was the guardian of the booty carried to New York on the Kedah Merchant.

In the minds of the Palmyra diggers, Captain Kidd had sailed the Kedah Merchant up the Susquehanna, buried the Kedahn booty in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah (named after the Arabic toponym given to the peninsula where Kedah was located) and Maroni, or rather Maroni's bloody ghost, took charge of the treasure. You can read all about it in From Captain Kidd's Treasure Ghost to the Angel Moroni

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Philo Sofee
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Philo Sofee »

FUN reading this stuff! Thanks for the links
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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sat Feb 11, 2023 2:37 pm
FUN reading this stuff! Thanks for the links

Yeah, I look forward to reading those links too but haven't yet fitted that into my agenda.

Thanks, Zosimus, for sharing and participating in this Celestial thread. It's been great!
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Shulem
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Pearls

Post by Shulem »

It’s time for me to put another card on the table in favor of Heartland America as being part of Joseph Smith’s overall Book of Mormon geography.

We are informed that during the Fourth Nephi era the population had multiplied and people were spread all over the face of the land. Commerce and trade allowed people to grow rich and enjoy natural material possessions of the earth in abundance. One of those natural wonders worn upon the body were fine pearls that were harvested from waters within the regions in which the Nephites lived. Fresh water pearls were found in abundance within American regions not far from Joseph Smith’s own homeland. The American Indians were living proof that pearls were had in abundance so it’s only natural that pearls would be mentioned in the story of the Book of Mormon.

4 Nephi 1:23,24 wrote:And now I, Mormon, would that ye should know that the people had multiplied, insomuch that they were spread upon all the face of the land, and that they had become exceedingly rich, because of their prosperity in Christ.

And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.

The native American Indians were known to wear pearls in abundance. Joseph Smith would have known about that as attested by his own mother who said, “Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress.”

Here are a couple of references about the production of fresh water pearls in the United States in which circumstances we can only assume Joseph Smith was well aware.

Americanpearl.com/ wrote:English colonizers and French explorers found Native Americans wearing and using pearls. These freshwater pearls were found in the Ohio, Mississippi and Tennessee River basins, and the colonizers exported so many to Europe that the New World became known as the “Land of Pearls.”
NOVA PBS.org wrote:The English colonizers along North America’s Atlantic coast and French explorers to the north and west, all found native Americans wearing pearls, and they discovered freshwater pearls in the Ohio, Mississippi, and Tennessee River basins. So many gems were exported to Europe that the New World quickly gained the appellation “Land of Pearls.”

This evidence serves to show how Joseph Smith was naturally inclined to include pearls in his story because pearls were naturally had upon the rivers that flowed in America proper. We can only guess if Smith thought pearls were also found around Delmarva and the coast. But we know that pearls were found in the rivers in great abundance and this serves to include the Heartland as a natural candidate for Book of Mormon geography.

:idea:
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Philo Sofee »

HA!!! A Pearl of GREAT Price found for the Book of Mormon!
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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Feb 12, 2023 10:08 pm
HA!!! A Pearl of GREAT Price found for the Book of Mormon!

Yes, it’s a Pearl of Great Price and shows how young Joseph perceived pearls being harvested in the land of promise -- the very land of America in which he esteemed was better than all other lands. I can assure you, young Joseph never in his imagination thought of pearls being harvested down in Mexico. That is a Dan Peterson invention, something which Joseph Smith never conceived. What Joseph was interested in was how the American Indians in his own backyard were known to decorate themselves with all manner of precious things, including fresh water pearls. According to the Book of Mormon, all manner of fine pearls were found in the land and were once used to decorate the bodies of the Nephites. Those pearls were made in America!
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