Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by dan vogel »

Shulem,

In another video I describe what was known to Joseph Smith's contemporaries about the ruins in central, south, and north Aerica.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ7Pbn4pTlE&t=5s

Here is part of it:

Singularity of the Mound Builders

Many early writers explicitly linked the North American mounds with the ruins of Mexico, Central America, and Peru. James Sullivan writing in 1795 asserted that the Ohio mounds and fortifications “must have been raised by the people of Mexico and Peru, because the northern nations never possessed the art.” ( James Sullivan, The History of the District of Main (Boston, 1795), 83.) Thaddeus Harris asserted in 1805 that North American burial mounds and fortifications were of “the same structure” of those of the Mexicans. (Thaddeus Mason Harris, The Journal of a Tour into the Territory Northwest of the Alleghany Mountains; Made in the Spring of the Year 1803 (Boston, 1805), 165 66.) Yates and Moulton also saw the ruins of their own state of New York as part of one great project:
"These remains of art may be viewed as connecting links of a great chain, which extends beyond the confines of our state, and becomes more magnificent and curious as we recede from the northern lakes, pass through Ohio into the great vale of the Mississippi, thence to the Gulf of Mexico, through Texas into New Mexico and South America. In this vast range of more than three thousand miles, these monuments of ancient skill gradually become more remarkable for their number, magnitude, and interesting variety, until we are lost in admiration and astonishment." John V[an] N[ess] Yates and Joseph W[hite] Moulton, History of the State of New York (New York, 1824), 19.
In 1824 the Columbian Historian described this chain of ruins in much the same way:
"An observing eye can easily mark in these works, the progress of their authors, from the lakes to the valley of the Mississippi; thence to the Gulf of Mexico, and round it, through Texas, into New Mexico, and into South America; their increased numbers, as they proceeded, are evident; while the articles found in and near these works, show also the progressive improvement of the arts among those who erected them." Columbian Historian, 20 Aug. 1824, 69.
Such descriptions of course imply that all structures were engineered by one group—the mound builders. Many writers speculated that this group originated in the north and then migrated south into Mexico and Peru, building greater and greater mounds. Others believed the group originated in the south and was pushed into North America by savage tribes. The fortifications in the Great Lakes region would thus have been a last desperate effort at defense.

It is not widely known, but in 1842 Caleb Atwater wrote a letter to the postmaster of Nauvoo, who was then Sidney Rigdon, and proposed a special edition of the Book of Mormon to be bound with his 1820 study of the Ohio mounds. In this letter, he made the following interesting statement:
Great doubts exist as to ... whether they came from Asia across at Behring’s straits, and journeying onwards to Western New York; Then, progressing slowly in a south western direction until they reached Mexico and Peru: or, starting from the last countries, they moved in a north eastern direction to Western New York. Perhaps, your prophet has found the records which they left buried in the earth, which inform us of all the migrations of that ancient people.Caleb Atwater to Postmaster, Nauvoo, IL, 16 Nov. 1842, copy in Stanley Ivins Collection, Utah State Historical Society, Salt Lake City.
Whatever the theory, the northeastern mounds were prime focal points—either the beginning or the end. Western New York was right in the center as one observer would write in the Ohio Gazetteer in 1819,
“The place where they commence, or at least, where they are very remarkable, is in the western part of the state of New York, near the southern shores of lake Ontario.” John Kilbourn, The Ohio Gazetteer (6th ed.; Columbus, 1819), 20.
This would place significant mound builder history right in Joseph Smith’s backyard.
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dan vogel
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by dan vogel »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:59 pm
Orson Pratt wrote:. . . they built a vessel, in which they were safely brought across the great Pacific ocean, and landed upon the western coast of South America

Brother Pratt,

I will inform you that the continent of South America is 4,700 miles long from north to south and is 3,300 miles at its widest point. The coastline of the entire continent has 15,800 miles. Are you aware of that, brother Pratt? And yet Nephi said, “we are upon an isle of the sea” as if he understood the landmass to be a virtual island. How could Nephi have thought it was an isle if he had not traveled to the ends of the continent to learn there was water there rather than land adjoined to the Old World? Nephi’s implication of being on an isle is indicative of being on an island in the midst of the ocean. Nephi’s “isle” is descriptive of a limited geographic model which just so happens to be the case with the first inheritance, Zarahemla, and Bountiful. I’m afraid your model turns Sea East into the Atlantic and Sea West into the Pacific which blows everything out of proportion.

I suggest you carefully reread the Book of Mormon, sir. You will soon discover that your South America theory is oversized and wrong.

Shulem
How do you call your limited geography an island?

The purpose of Jacob’s statement - “The Lord has made the sea our path ... and we are upon an isle of the sea” (2 Nephi 10:20) - is to connect America with Bible prophecy. Jacob argues that America is among the “isles of the sea” mentioned in prophecy either by Nephi, Isaiah, or Zenos. He says, “great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea” (v. 21).

In Book of Mormon terms, the New World was surrounded by water (cf. Hel. 3:8) in dimensions much smaller than the Eastern Hemisphere. Similar to Jacob's use of the term "island," a letter written by the Muhhecannuk Nation (the Stockbridge Indians) to the New York Baptist Association, dated May 1797, reads: “We are glad to hear that you do believe with us, that it was the will of the Great Good Spirit, that your ancestors came over the great waters to this island, for a certain good purpose.” (New York Missionary Magazine and Repository of Religious Intelligence 1 (1800): 296.)
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:52 pm
dan vogel wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:54 am
What was a day and a half journey for Joseph Smith?

Stories in the Book of Mormon provide many examples of day-time and night-time traveling of those who are chasing and those who are being chased as well as those who are going from point A to point B. Speed of the various marches varied depending on the circumstances at hand.

Day-time travel took place during daylight hours and night-time travel took place in the dark. What is a day of travel? Well, it’s more than half a day and less than a day and a half. So, it can vary somewhat. A day traveling could be 6 hours or it could be a full 12 hours or more by light of the sun depending on the season. A day and a half could be a short or long day plus a short day. It all seems somewhat flexible. It’s not an exact measurement, per-se, it’s relative to the circumstances and the area Joseph visualized.

A day across the narrow neck going east to west (horizontal line of axis) to defend the narrow neck could be 6 hours to 12 hours depending on what part of the map and area in the neck Joseph was looking at and how fast he figured a “Nephite” would walk/march that time of year.

A day and a half across the narrow neck going from south to north (vertical line of axis) to span the length of the neck required more than a day’s march because the length of the neck was longer and farther than the width. This is something I point out in my threads that apologists fail to realize in reading the internal measurements Smith gave in the text. These factors are key to understanding the neck. The neck was not a long and winding LAND BRIDGE (Central America) but was simply a narrow neck of a peninsula adjoined to a large mass going northward. The text makes that perfectly clear.
Okay, now I see how you get the length in your neck of land. At least you see the need for it. Tehuantepec has nothing. However, how you map it out seems artificial and arbitrary. I was just looking at the narrowest point. Alma 22:32 implies that on one side of the line is Bountiful, and on the other Desolation. This also implies that the neck would be part of the land northward.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:10 pm
Shulem,
In just 35 minutes you could have learned a lot about the Mound Builder Myth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTOWAgNDIDE&t=51s

Joseph Smith borrowed the historical framework of the Book of Mormon from this myth.

Bravo! Your video is valuable and informative -- a good resource, pleasantly presented. Not sure that I would use the word “framework” for describing how Smith borrowed from the myth to create the historical story for his own work and version but it’s obvious that Smith borrowed and used ideas from the myth in which to present his own inspired story which was given as restoration of what really happened via the gold plates. Smith borrowed what he wanted from existing sources and modified and transformed them to be whatever he wanted. We can agree that the Book of Mormon text does NOT exactly say that Lehi landed on what would later become one of the states (Virginia) of the future Gentile nation in which the gospel would be restored. Neither does it say he landed on the west coast of a southern continent far removed from the northern continent in which the gospel would be restored.

I’m convinced my argument for Delmarva is far stronger than the west coast of South America. Just because Smith stole ideas from one myth doesn’t mean he used everything exactly expressed therein because Smith had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. Rather than walk to America as the Ten Tribes did he had those from the southern kingdom sail on a ship. There are marked differences and Smith did as he pleased. Either way, Smith was a liar and was apt to steal from others for his own gain.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:01 pm
How do you call your limited geography an island?

The purpose of Jacob’s statement - “The Lord has made the sea our path ... and we are upon an isle of the sea” (2 Nephi 10:20) - is to connect America with Bible prophecy. Jacob argues that America is among the “isles of the sea” mentioned in prophecy either by Nephi, Isaiah, or Zenos. He says, “great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea” (v. 21).

In Book of Mormon terms, the New World was surrounded by water (cf. Hel. 3:8) in dimensions much smaller than the Eastern Hemisphere. Similar to Jacob's use of the term "island," a letter written by the Muhhecannuk Nation (the Stockbridge Indians) to the New York Baptist Association, dated May 1797, reads: “We are glad to hear that you do believe with us, that it was the will of the Great Good Spirit, that your ancestors came over the great waters to this island, for a certain good purpose.” (New York Missionary Magazine and Repository of Religious Intelligence 1 (1800): 296.)

Dan,

I expressed a limited geography in the story in my longer threads. And lest we forget, Dan, the Sidon river is also part of that limited geography in which they managed topographical areas along that river for distances that were not very long at all. The cities of the land of Nephi and Zarahemla to the north was divided by the Sidon that ran north and south. The stories and narrative describe the Sidon being within a limited region! And, yes, I can prove that by the text which Joseph dictated out of his hat. Show me that river in South America. Show me the cities that were on the East Coast of Brazil. Then provide narrative to show distance between the coasts. Good luck. Snap!

But here are some references to the “isle”:

Last edited by Shulem on Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:01 pm
In Book of Mormon terms, the New World was surrounded by water (cf. Hel. 3:8) in dimensions much smaller than the Eastern Hemisphere.

Dan,

I agree that Joseph was influenced by the myths and other books written on the subject in which he had knowledge of. But Joseph had his own ideas and changed things up quite a bit. Now, take South America and Panama which is a long and windy land bridge that connects two continents. The text in the book tells us about orientation and oceanic four seas as they relate to the Book of Mormon lands and the narrow neck at north. The Delmarva theory works perfectly with the orientation and seas given by Alma JOSEPH SMITH in the text. Sea East and Sea West are expressly given for the neck above Bountiful and we also know that Sea South is a feature of the ocean although it is not accessed or part of the story. Sea North is mentioned as a feature. Bear in mind that it’s always Joseph Smith NOT Alma that is looking at the globe while telling the story. Joseph is the true author and he is the overlord of the entire map.

Delmarva has the four seas although the north sea is somewhat arbitrary it could be associated with the northern part of the Delaware Bay but moreover the coast leading up northward along the continental coast. Sea North does have bearing and Smith saw it on a map. (Sea North can well include Lakes Erie & Ontario which are hundreds of miles wide and are great bodies of water mentioned in the text)

In contrast, the Panama neck is in opposition to what is described in the text so consequently Smith as the overlord of the globe could not label Panama as his neck. Panama does not have the right seas to match the Book of Mormon text! It doesn’t work!

Panama has:
  • North Sea
  • West Sea OR South Sea

South America has:
  • North Sea
  • West Sea
  • East Sea
  • South Sea

It’s the North Sea that effectively puts Panama out of the running as a possible candidate of narrow neck orientation given by Joseph Smith who was looking at the very globe in which he was describing. The narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon does NOT have a NORTH Sea so Panama is automatically disqualified.
Last edited by Shulem on Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Where would Isengard and the Orthanc Tower have been located on the Delmarva Penninsula (assuming two fictional stories could coexist on the stretch of land) or would it be better to look to New Jersey?
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Orientation and location for hemispheric theory

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...............SEA NORTH...............

Image

...............SEA SOUTH...............


Meanwhile, Sea East off the “isle” of South America runs along the east coast of Brazil. That does not provide cover for a Sea East north of Panama mentioned in the text because SEA NORTH takes up all that space. It’s a slam dunk in proving the text does not provide correct orientation for Panama as a candidate for Joseph’s narrow neck. Looking at the globe will absolutely confirm that. The directions and the seas are wrong.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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I credit the apologists in getting their directions and orientation correct in creating this map which I have posted and discussed multiple times in my other threads. It’s almost like they are ready to throw their hands up in the air and admit that Delmarva is the only place on the globe that satisfies what is described in the text in order to locate Smith’s secret geography.

Image
...............SEA SOUTH...............
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Moksha wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:57 pm
Where would Isengard and the Orthanc Tower have been located on the Delmarva Penninsula (assuming two fictional stories could coexist on the stretch of land) or would it be better to look to New Jersey?

The white and delightsome wizard was probably down near Shemlon (No. 6) whereby they could keep a close eye on the surroundings.


1. FIRST INHERITANCE: And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land

2. LEHI-NEPHI: And we did take our tents and whatsoever things were possible for us, and did journey in the wilderness for the space of many days. And after we had journeyed for the space of many days we did pitch our tents. And my people would that we should call the name of the place Nephi; wherefore, we did call it Nephi.

3. ZARAHEMLA: Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also depart out of the land with him, into the wilderness . . . through the wilderness until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla.

4. SHILOM: King Mosiah had had continual peace for the space of three years, he was desirous to know concerning the people who went up to dwell in the land of Lehi-Nephi, or in the city of Lehi-Nephi; for his people had heard nothing from them from the time they left the land of Zarahemla . . . king Mosiah granted that sixteen of their strong men might go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi . . . they knew not the course they should travel in the wilderness to go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi; therefore they wandered many days in the wilderness, even forty days did they wander. And when they had wandered forty days they came to a hill, which is north of the land of Shilom, and there they pitched their tents. . . . And ye all are witnesses this day, that Zeniff, who was made king over this people, he being over-zealous to inherit the land of his fathers, therefore being deceived by the cunning and craftiness of king Laman, who having entered into a treaty with king Zeniff, and having yielded up into his hands the possessions of a part of the land, or even the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the city of Shilom; and the land round about—

5. DESOLATION: And the king said unto him: Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that forty and three of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Zarahemla, that we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us out of bondage. And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

6. SHEMLON: And it came to pass that he built a tower near the temple; yea, a very high tower, even so high that he could stand upon the top thereof and overlook the land of Shilom, and also the land of Shemlon, which was possessed by the Lamanites; and he could even look over all the land round about.
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