Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:23 pm
Shulem wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:19 pm
Let’s take a peek at the narrative, shall we?
Sure, but let's go direct to John Whitmer's writings in 1828, instead of the narrative that came after the publication of the Book of Mormon.

"Nevertheless, my work shall go forth, for inasmuch as the knowledge of a Savior has come unto the world, through the testimony of the Jews, even so shall the knowledge of a Savior come unto my people−"

Was originally:

"for as the knowledge of a Saveiour hath come to the world so shall the knowledge of my People the Nephities & the Jacobites & the Josephites & the Lamanites"

Zosimus, understanding the original writings and manuscripts and how they were processed and transcribed is complicated. The one in question (in particular p. 2) is featured at Joseph Smith Papers in two separate presentations:

The following scholarly source and historical notations found therein are helpful:

Joseph Smith Papers wrote:
  • This is the first Joseph Smith revelation for which a text has survived. According to Joseph Smith’s history, it was obtained using the Urim and Thummim after Martin Harris lost the earliest Book of Mormon manuscript.
  • Revelation, Harmony Township, Susquehanna Co., PA, to Joseph Smith, July 1828. Featured version copied [ca. Mar. 1831] in Revelation Book 1, pp. 1–2; handwriting of John Whitmer; CHL. Includes redactions.
  • Revelation Book 1, also known as “Book of Commandments and Revelations,” is a manuscript book of revelations and other items that was begun less than a year after Joseph Smith organized the Church of Christ in April 1830. John Whitmer was the principal scribe, although Oliver Cowdery also wrote a few pages. The book may have originated in New York in summer 1830 when Joseph Smith and John Whitmer began to “arrange and copy the revelations” previously received. More likely, however, Whitmer began inscribing material in Revelation Book 1 in Ohio, circa March 1831, following his appointment to keep church records and history. Textual evidence indicates that Whitmer and Cowdery copied revelations and other items into Revelation Book 1 from even earlier manuscripts that are no longer extant.

Zosimus, what you thought was original writings of Whitmer in 1828 was copied and written after the publication of the Book of Mormon! Whitmer’s writings supported the very narrative that came after the Book of Mormon! His transcriptions are copies of other writings which are no longer extant. So we are unable to see the ORIGINAL and compare exactly what may have been penned by the prophet himself as attested in the Joseph Smith Papers!

Regarding Section 3:

Joseph Smith Papers wrote:It is not known when or how the text was committed to paper. Although Joseph Smith may have written it himself, he dictated later revelations to scribes and may have dictated this one to either Emma or her brother Reuben Hale, both of whom served as scribes to Joseph Smith during this time. The earliest extant version of the revelation, featured here, was copied into Revelation Book 1 by John Whitmer, likely in early 1831.

Let’s peek at the statement in question and I’ll make my own redactions to support redactions made later for publication:

Whitmer wrote:for as the knowledge of a Saveiour hath come to the world (WHICH EVERYONE KNOWS CAME FROM THE JEWS VIA THE FIRST CHRISTIANS) so shall the knowledge of my People the Nephities & the Jacobites & the Josephites & the Lamanites (COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE SAVIOR VIA JOSEPH SMITH IN AMERICA)

The gospel was first delivered to the Jews through Christ *in* Jerusalem. The gospel would later be restored through Joseph Smith for the Lamanites *in* America.

Now, with regard to the redactions:

Joseph Smith Papers wrote:
  • Editorial redactions in Revelation Book 1 demonstrate that it was used as a source for publishing the Book of Commandments in 1833.
  • These redactions show an effort to clarify wording in the revelations and other items on the part of those selecting, arranging, and preparing them for publication.
  • Many redactions were made before selected items were published in Missouri, while others were made in Ohio before the 1835 publication of the Doctrine and Covenants.
  • Oliver Cowdery could have made redactions in either Ohio or Missouri as early as 1831 or as late as 1835, though the majority of redactions they made first appear in print in 1833 or earlier.
  • The extent to which Joseph Smith influenced the redactions made by other individuals is unknown.

more later...
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

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Zosimus wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:23 pm
Shulem wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:19 pm
So, the knowledge of a Savior first came into the world through the Jews and then in the last days the knowledge of a Savior would come to the Gentiles (“my people”) in America via Joseph Smith.
Not in the original. In the 1828 version there's no mention of knowledge of the Savior coming into the world through the Jews. No mention of the gentiles being "my people". No mention of America. Next.

"And to the Nephites, and the Jacobites, and the Josephites, and the Zoramites, through the testimony of their fathers−

was originally:

"the Nephities & the Jacobites & the Josephites & the Lamanites come to the Lamanites knowledge of the Lamanites"

Everyone knows the gospel of Jesus Christ came from the Jews. It doesn’t need to say it! It doesn’t even need to imply it. Everyone on God’s green earth already knows it. Furthermore, everyone who knows anything about Joseph Smith also knows he was restoring the gospel of Jesus Christ in his own homeland which is America and that his plans to take that gospel to the Lamanites (American Indians) was part of his divine mission as prophesied in the Book of Mormon. The threads I’ve produced on Book of Mormon geography cite plenty of material and examples that show this is exactly what Smith originally dictated while prophesying of himself. You’ve not addressed that at all. Believe me, if you had, I would have jumped right on it and seal the cracks you attempt to make. Go back and read the threads and see how the Book of Mormon land of promise and Joseph Smith the *SEER* are of one accord. The prophecy is about the restored gospel being taken to the Lamanites in the very same lands in which their forefathers dwelt -- the very same land in which Joseph Smith lived. Period! Read the Book of Mormon, again, for crying out loud!

Open your eyes, Zosimus!
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Marcus »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:24 pm
Zosimus wrote:
Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:11 am
I served my mission in the mission that included the Comoros Islands. Although there were no missionaries there in the Comoros, I taught several migrants from the Comoros including some from the capital of Moroni. We always had a chuckle when we revealed those names in the Book of Mormon.

And this helps explain why you have passion and perhaps a calling to perform the work you’re doing in providing details, explanations, and hypothesis of how these matters are related to original Book of Mormon geography. And I commend you. The information you’ve given is invaluable and of interest to everyone who wants to know more. I do believe that there is still much to be pieced together and solved in order to better understand the mysteries of how Joseph Smith came up with the Book of Mormon.

I don’t deny the possibility that Smith had his eye on Malaysia with reference to both geography and terminology. But, as I’ve said in past posts, the Asian peninsula and maps of Smith’s time do not match specifics of the text in the Book of Mormon. I do believe to have demonstrated in my threads how Delmarva does match the text. I’m convinced that Delmarva was the peninsula selected by Smith to represent the land of Nephi on the American continent. Whatever Smith had in mind with Asia may have been an influence but did not come to fruition and ultimately does not represent the Book of Mormon.
i came here to say that based on Shulem's threads, he has provided a convincing argument that Smith used a map of something he was familiar with as an aid in keeping his oral story telling consistent, and to me there is no conflict between that and Smith being influenced by many other things as well. Good thing I read back a few pages to make sure I was caught up on the discussion, because here is Shulem laying out that idea much more clearly!

Thanks again, Shulem, your threads are always interesting and I'm very glad you post them.
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:38 pm
i came here to say that based on Shulem's threads, he has provided a convincing argument that Smith used a map of something he was familiar with as an aid in keeping his oral story telling consistent, and to me there is no conflict between that and Smith being influenced by many other things as well. Good thing I read back a few pages to make sure I was caught up on the discussion, because here is Shulem laying out that idea much more clearly!

Thanks again, Shulem, your threads are always interesting and I'm very glad you post them.

THANK YOU for that! And I’m very glad you are here.

:D
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:23 pm
Shulem wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:19 pm
I think it’s plainly clear that the plates and the place in which they exist in ancient times as well as in 1828 is in America.
Although there's no difference between the original and the published version here, its not at all plainly clear that America is uniquely referred to in the original revelation. Next.

Zosimus, there is nothing you can do or say to change the fact that the gold plates claim to originate from the American continent after having been buried at Cumorah for some 1,400 years ACCORDING TO THE CHORONOLOGY OF THE TEXT!
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:44 pm
Shulem wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:55 pm
Let’s see what the character Moroni says in the Book of Mormon as Smith is dictating the stories therein. I think it’s quite clear that it takes place in the land of promise (America) where Joseph Smith lived.

  • I [Mormon] made  this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were  these few plates which I gave unto my son  Moroni.
  • Behold I, Moroni, do finish the  record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father.
  • Therefore I will write and  hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.
  • And now I, Moroni, have written the words which were commanded me, according to my memory; and I have told you the things which I have  sealed up; therefore touch them not in order that ye may translate; for that thing is forbidden you, except by and by it shall be wisdom in God. And behold, ye may be privileged that ye may show the plates unto those who shall assist to bring forth this work; And unto  three shall they be shown by the power of God; wherefore they shall  know of a surety that these things are true.
There's nothing here that describes anything uniquely American. There's nothing that identifies a specific location in the world. Moroni himself tells us that it doesn't matter where he went.

The narrative of the Book of Mormon chronicles how Moroni buried the plates at New York Cumorah in 421 AD in which the same plates would be translated in the last days by a chosen seer named JOSEPH and that Three Witnesses would testify of that work. The book ends with Moroni on the run and fearing for his life. He was not overly concerned with his fate or where he would go after that. The main theme and narrative describing the climax of the book is that Moroni lived on the *same* land of promise as that of JOSEPH.

There is absolutely nothing you can say to refute that. Nothing!

Frankly, Zosimus, I see you have not caught the message of the Book of Mormon and your reasoning skills are seriously wanting.
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 2:44 pm
Shulem wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 7:55 pm
  • And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph
The New Jerusalem is specifically identified in Book of Mormon prophecies as being in America which is the same promised land in which the chosen seer would translate the ancient records as a blessing to the inhabitants who descended from the original Lamanites.
Perhaps in post-1830 Book of Mormon prophecies. But as you mentioned in relation to the 1830 Cowdery/Pratt statements (that probably came from Joseph) about the Lehites landing in Chile, we're not considering commentary that comes after the publication of the Book of Mormon. Where is the New Jerusalem specifically identified in the Book of Mormon as being in America?

I’m afraid your reading comprehension has taken a bit of a nosedive, or you’re just utterly confused. The citation above about New Jerusalem is not commentary that comes after the publication of the Book of Mormon. It is Moroni quoting Ether in the Book of Mormon! It’s a summation of how the remnant of the seed of Joseph is a type that would be blessed through JOSEPH THE SEER when the New Jerusalem would be established in the land of promise which is the land of JOSEPH.

Here is the prophecy of Jesus foreshadowing the New Jerusalem established by JOSEPH and the Church of the Latter Day Saints:

3 Nephi 20:22 wrote:And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the  covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you.

AND THEN:

3 Nephi 21 wrote:22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;

23 And they shall assist my  people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the  New Jerusalem.

24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.

The character Moroni fully envisioned the New Jerusalem being in America and established by JOSEPH and the Latter Day Saint Church. He recognized how the Jaredites and the Nephites inherited the same land of promise inhabited by JOSEPH SMITH and the gold plates. Moroni said, “Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a new Jerusalem upon this land.”

What land? The land in which JOSEPH lived and where the gold plates were buried. THAT is the promised land of the Book of Mormon.
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:22 pm
Zosimus, what you thought was original writings of Whitmer in 1828 was copied and written after the publication of the Book of Mormon!
Correct. Everything we know about the treasure guardian before 1830 was that he was a man (or spirit) with bloody clothes, presumably from having been murdered. Can you find anything from before 1830 that identifies the man/spirit/angel that revealed the treasure to Joseph as an ancient American prophet instead of a bloody apparition of some sort?

Its important because as you know, my argument is that the name Moroni or Maroni comes from a title given to Malay warriors and the name Cumorah comes from the name given to Malay in Arabic geographies that would have been discussed in circles interested in Egyptian lore or hermeticism in the 1820s.

I'm looking for one statement that comes before 1830 that shows that Joseph intended America as the Book of Mormon geography instead of cribbing the names and geography from Arabian Nights, the "biography" of Captain Kidd and any other accounts of the Indian Ocean.
Shulem wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:22 pm
Let’s peek at the statement in question and I’ll make my own redactions to support redactions made later for publication:
Whitmer wrote:for as the knowledge of a Saveiour hath come to the world (WHICH EVERYONE KNOWS CAME FROM THE JEWS VIA THE FIRST CHRISTIANS) so shall the knowledge of my People the Nephities & the Jacobites & the Josephites & the Lamanites (COME TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE SAVIOR VIA JOSEPH SMITH IN AMERICA)
I don't understand the point here. Not interested in redactions that you or anyone else might make to revelations, especially redactions made after the publication of the Book of Mormon.
Furthermore, everyone who knows anything about Joseph Smith also knows he was restoring the gospel of Jesus Christ in his own homeland which is America and that his plans to take that gospel to the Lamanites (American Indians) was part of his divine mission as prophesied in the Book of Mormon.
I’ve discussed this before, but you haven't read what I’ve linked to yet, for lack of time as you’ve said. Or maybe its my fault for getting sidetracked by the discussion about Captian Kidd and the bloody ghost. Let me summarize my earliest posts:

In early 1828, Martin Harris was seeking validation that the characters from the plates were authentic. He got in his stagecoach and rode by himself all the way to Columbia University in New York City to show the transcript to Samuel Mitchell, America's leading naturalist. Through the 1820s Mitchell had been promoting his theory that Ohio and New York were once inhabited by Malays. According to Richard Bennett (a Mormon historian) Mitchell seemingly tells Martin Harris that the characters from the gold plates were those of a nation now extinct, and he told Martin the name of that nation. Bennett suggests that the name of that nation was Australasian (the term used back then for Malayo-Polynesian). This is critical to understanding the origins of the spirit that reveals the treasure to Joseph Smith between 1823 and 1830. Please read this, the shortest summary of Bennett's research I can find, to understand my side of this discussion better. Its not long. But since you'e already said you don't care what Bennett has said about all this I'll summarize the important part for you:

"[Samuel Mitchell] not only had many such writings on hand in his cabinets of antiquities, but he had also translated ancient writings for others. Whether he tried to translate Harris’ characters on the spot is not known, but he certainly seems to have studied them carefully enough to deliver a “learned dissertation” on them and to identify them as those of “a nation now extinct which he named.” Finally, and almost certainly, he saw in these characters additional evidence for his own richly developed theories on the extinct “delicate” Australasian race that had been destroyed by the more ferocious Tartars somewhere in upstate New York not far from where Harris lived in Palmyra."

My hypothesis is that Martin goes back to Palmyra and tells Joseph that the super smart Samuel Mitchell said that New York used to be full of Pacifick (sic) Islanders (Malayo-Polynesians) that resembled the native Indians south of the isthmus of Darien (source), and that armies had fought a massive battle of extinction 40 miles from Palmyra. Joseph, remembering some of the names of cities, hills, peninsulas and islands that he'd picked up from reading 1001 Arabian Nights, various maps and geographies, and his "biography" of Captain Kidd, starts dictating to Martin.
Zosimus, there is nothing you can do or say to change the fact that the gold plates claim to originate from the American continent after having been buried at Cumorah for some 1,400 years ACCORDING TO THE CHORONOLOGY OF THE TEXT!
Then I won't waste any more time discussing it here. So, in your opinion, where did the name Cumorah come from?
Shulem wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:22 pm
The main theme and narrative describing the climax of the book is that Moroni lived on the *same* land of promise as that of JOSEPH. There is absolutely nothing you can say to refute that. Nothing!
Shulem, I understand your argument, and I undesrtand the message of the Book of Mormon well enough to participate here. I spent years in primary and seminary, and served a mission too. You're starting to go after me instead of discussing.
Shulem wrote:
Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:22 pm
Frankly, Zosimus, I see you have not caught the message of the Book of Mormon and your reasoning skills are seriously wanting.
Now you're giving me PTSD flashbacks from discussions with stubborn members of the church.
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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:19 pm
Note how the testimony of their fathers would serve to convert their descendants. Those people who lived anciently lived in America just as their descendants do in Joseph Smith’s own time.
Shulem wrote:
Thu Feb 23, 2023 6:19 pm
Again, we see that testimony of ancient forefathers who once lived in America will convert their descendants, more especially, the Lamanites.
Wanted to go back to these comments, and emphasize that the first missionaries (if we exclude Samuel Smith's efforts) were Oliver Cowdery, Parley P. Pratt, Peter Whitmer Jr. and Ziba Peterson. Do you recognize this group?

These were the missionaries, called to preach to the Lamanites, that publicly preached while on their missions to the Lamanites that an area in Chile south of the Isthmus of Darien was the landing spot of the Lehites.

You'd think the first missionaries called to preach to the Lamanites would know something about the ancient forefathers of the Lamanites and the source from whence they sprang.

We also need to keep in mind that in the 1820s not much was known about the various tribes of natives scattered throughout the Americas. The west was still terra incognito. The Great Salt Lake wasn't even known until 1825. We have to place ourselves in that milieu as much as possible to understand the statements we pick apart today. All these thoughts you attribute to Joseph about the natives and the boundaries of promised lands and such wouldn't have been as defined for him as they are to you now. When Cowdery and the Pratts spoke of Chile being the land of first inheritance, they were being inclusive of possibilities, not exclusive. Guess where Joseph Smith had sent the first missionaries to preach in a language that wasn't English. Mexico? Guatemala? Chile? Panama? Utah?

None of the above. Joseph Smith sent Addison Pratt, Benjamin Franklin Grouard, Noah Rogers and Knowlton F. Hanks to create a mission in the Society Islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. Addison Pratt ended up on the tiny island of Tubuai where one of the oldest congregations in the LDS church still meets today.

Joseph Smith, as was common in his day, understood that Pacific Islanders were also descendants of Israelites. As you know, Mormons to this day consider Pacific Islanders to be descendants of Lehi.

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Re: Captain Kidd Strikes Again!

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:48 am
Now you're giving me PTSD flashbacks from discussions with stubborn members of the church.

Well, hang in there and take it in stride. My little quips are given in a spirit of goodwill and not meant to be toxic. ;)

What mainly concerns me is the very text of the book. Anything said before or after is evidence that must be weighed and considered within a perspective that may have differing motives and ideas. It’s clear to me that while Smith was dictating the story of Jesus in America, he fully intended to expand his mission as a prophet and start a new church. The statement Jesus made to the Nephites (“I will establish my church among them”) in a New Jerusalem is evidence enough to reveal Smith’s true intentions. Who else was to establish a church other than Joseph the son of Joseph who was born in the land of promise among the Lamanites according to prophecy?

There is no question in my mind that Joseph planned to start a new church even before he finished dictating the Book of Mormon but wasn’t sure how or exactly when that would happen. Smith was doing things on the fly.
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