Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Shulem »

dan vogel wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:02 am
Here a random example of “American Continent” referring to the entire western hemisphere.

“But since the Esquimaux Indians are manifestly a separate species of men, distinct from all the nations of the American Continent, ...” – Jedidiah Morse, The American Universal Geography (Boston: J.T. Buckingham, 1805), 88.

https://books.google.com/books/content ... -Rg&w=1025

Yeah, North America is an “American Continent”, true.

Yeah, South America is an “American Continent”, true.

BUT, only one of the above is/was ruled and managed under the government of “Gentiles” who would nurse the Lamanites in the last days. North America is the very place where Joseph Smith visualized Lehi’s landing. It is the very frontier in which the Nephites and Lamanites built their civilization preparatory to the coming of the Gentiles. The land of liberty is Philadelphia, not Chile! I don’t care what Joseph Smith may have said after the fact or his cohorts in crime. They were all a bunch of liars and exaggerators.
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Re: Come forth!

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Zosimus wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:04 am
I've been going through your threads the past couple days, but need a few more days since I'm also trying to get through a deadline at work. I'm interested in your hypothesis because I also spent a good amount of time squinting at early 19th century maps of the colonies (including Delmarva), turning them all sideways, backwards, and upside-down until I was convinced there weren't any that would have served as a template for the Book of Mormon geography.

I'm presently digging in a different direction. To me it looks like the author of the Book of Mormon based the narrative and geography in the islands and peninsulas found in the popular pirate tales of the period. I won't hijack your thread, but at some point I'll share here or elsewhere and would love to get your input.

Fair enough. Take your time. There is no rush. Here in the Celestial forum we just flutter about and do our thing and do so ever as politely as possible. This thread is entitled “Book of Mormon Geography” so you are entitled to post anything you want so long as it relates to Book of Mormon Geography. Thus, this thread is not just about Delmarva, so feel free.

And again, welcome to the board! Especially the Celestial forum where we are nice to each other. Sometimes it can be a little challenging because many of us are quite passionate in our opinions and how we understand things.
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Re: Come forth!

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dan vogel wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:46 am
When Joseph Smith says the American Continent, you must remember he claimed Lehi landed in Chile and believed the cities Stephens discovered in Central America were Nephite. It doesn't make sense to argue that he meant one thing when he referred to the continent while explaining away all his other statements. Likewise, it doesn't make sense to impose a narrow definition on "here" in the Testimony of the witnesses, probably written by Cowdery, and ignore his naming Chile as Lehi's landing place only a few months later.

Dan,

Mormonism in all its forms and doctrines were evolutionary and ever changing to meet the needs of the time. Joseph Smith contradicted himself on many occasions and at every turn. He tried to cover, deflect, and excuse his errors. You know that liars have a hard time keeping their stories straight -- that’s a fact! When someone tells the truth they are constant and don’t have a hard time keeping the story straight. Take the First Vision for example. The different accounts are quite telling on how Joseph was making it up and lying. I have a thread here in the Celestial forum that explains exactly how and why Joseph changed his story from One Person appearing to him in the grove to Two Persons. Does that make sense that he changed his story? Not any more than when he embraced Stephen’s expeditions and went along with what the Pratts thought.

All of it is a big lie, Dan. A pious lie at that. And liars never keep their story straight.
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Here here

Post by Shulem »

dan vogel wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:46 am
Likewise, it doesn't make sense to impose a narrow definition on "here" in the Testimony of the witnesses

But it does and the “here” is all that mattered to Joseph Smith because that was the only way to get the plates to Cumorah which was in his own backyard. Just tap the ruby slippers three times and the gold plates magically go home. Right “here” is where the plates are buried! Right here is where the land of liberty was established under the inspired government of the founding fathers -- here, in America -- the land of promise wherein the Gentiles as did Lehi also made port. You see, Chile is down THERE, not up HERE! Chile is not even in the Book of Mormon picture. It is a late concept developed out of the idea of necessity to inspire faith.

Another narrow definition is given for Hagoth and those who launched their ships into the west sea “which led into the land northward” and thus they “took their course northward” just as Captain Kidd might do in sailing up the Susquehanna River with his treasure in which to bury. There also were those who walked through the narrow neck “which led into the land northward” and colonized the northern territory. I cover this in quite a bit detail in my other threads, one example is here. There is no question in my mind that Smith was visualizing transportation between north and south in a back-and-forth fashion on both land and sea. All of it was in a relatively small area, hence the limited geography models come into play.

Here and here means here:

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Marcus
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Re: Come forth!

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Shulem wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:28 am
Marcus wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:58 am

i must have missed that day in Seminary. Do you have a reference i can read that documents that Joseph Smith himself said Lehi landed in Chile?

The Book of Mormon specifies that Lehi landed on the very place in which the Gentiles (WHITE AND DELIGHTSOME ) ruled and that they would nurse the Lamanites to health through the restored gospel. My other threads flesh that out, as you well know.

Lehi landed on future Gentile territory, not Chile down south. It’s America under the banner of stars and stripes in which is the land of liberty or the land of promise!
  • Read the Book of Mormon.
  • Understand the Book Mormon.

;)
Thanks Shulem, and I do well know :D as well as agree that Smith told his fable the way you describe it. I just wanted to know what Dan Vogel was referring to when he made that very positive assertion, which is why I asked the question:.
Marcus wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:58 am
dan vogel wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:46 am
When Joseph Smith says the American Continent, you must remember he claimed Lehi landed in Chile...
i must have missed that day in Seminary. Do you have a reference i can read that documents that Joseph Smith himself said Lehi landed in Chile?
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Re: Come forth!

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Marcus wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:59 pm
Thanks Shulem, and I do well know :D as well as agree that Smith told his fable the way you describe it. I just wanted to know what Dan Vogel was referring to when he made that very positive assertion, which is why I asked the question:.

There is nothing in the text of the Book of Mormon that lends the idea that Lehi landed in Chile of all places -- the west coast of the South American continent contradicts the text at every turn and every calculation. Vogel is stuck with a geography that is not supported by the text and contradicts the whole story in every possible way you can imagine. It makes no sense at all! Vogel wants to make sense and approach things from a logical perspective, I’m sure, but one can’t do that and put Lehi down in Chile. The whole story falls apart and the working chronology that is so well planned can’t possibly jive with Chile. Smith would have known that. He was no dodo. He constructed what he felt was an accurate story using a base model in which to build it -- Delmarva.
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Chile nonsense

Post by Shulem »

Northern Chile is some 2,000 miles away from Darién in Panama. The sheer distance alone makes it impossible to match the text of the Book of Mormon in which geography and chronology in combination will NOT fit that lock, period. Not now, not ever! It is impossible. Zero probability. I won’t entertain such utter nonsense! The Pratts can go jump in the lake. They were idiots!

Now, with that said, I really don’t want to slam the Panama theory by taking the time to demonstrate how it does not work. I don’t want to slam Vogel and hurt his feelings or make him feel bad. And if I do, I apologize. I’d rather take the time to show how Delmarva works and how that key not only fits the lock but turns it and opens it in exposing Joseph’s secret venture.

BELIEVE!

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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Zosimus wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:07 am
dan vogel wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 1:02 am
Here a random example of “American Continent” referring to the entire western hemisphere.
I think it was common to refer to both North and South America as one continent even into the early 20th century. This is why the 1916 Olympic Flag has only 5 rings to represent 5 continents

:oops: Okay, okay.

I’ll admit that I’m being somewhat picky about “continent” always referring strictly to either North or South when in fact it’s often used in universal terms for this side of the world. The Book of Mormon makes it glaringly evident that the same land in which Lehi and his posterity set foot is the same land in which Gentiles would later set their feet when coming to nurse the Lamanite remnants who dwindled in unbelief. Upon *this* land established by the founding fathers and under the government of America, the future city of New Jerusalem would be built on American soil -- a soil void of kings. I’m afraid South America is not in that picture until later when Smith expanded his worldviews and mutated his own fabricated story to meet those expectations. The characters of Nephi, Alma, Mormon, Moroni, and Ether, gave the impression that the area and land on which they dwelt was the very land in which the Gentiles would come and the New Jerusalem would be built and come down out of heaven.

QUESTION: What does the hill Cumorah and Lehi’s landing have in common?

ANSWER: They are both in the Promised Land. Both were inhabited by Book of Mormon peoples and Gentiles who later possessed the same land.
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Re: Here come the Gentiles!

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The white and delightsome Gentiles come to America to colonize. It’s NOT South America, BUT North America, the one up north which is the land of promise. The white and delightsome Gentiles are going to scatter the American Indians and show them the backdoor because they are taking over the promised land.

1 Nephi 13:14 wrote:And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

The white and delightsome Gentiles are going to take over the land of promise and prosper in the land just as the white and delightsome Nephites did before the Lamanites committed genocide against them. All this takes place in New York State and the surrounding territory which is the promised land.

1 Nephi 13:15 wrote:And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

So, the Gentiles inherit the same land formally possessed by the Nephites of old. The Spirit of God comes upon them, and Joseph Smith soon enters the scene.

1 Nephi 13:16 wrote:And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

The Revolutionary War takes place. Great Britain thinks to overcome the Americans and subdue them.

1 Nephi 13:17 wrote:And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

The Gentiles on American soil prevail because they have humbled themselves and God preserves them.

1 Nephi 13:18 wrote:And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.

There is ONE nation in which God delivered out of the hands of all other nations: The United States of America which was founded on the very land of promise inhabited by Nephi, Alma, Mormon, Moroni, and Ether! God bless America.

1 Nephi 13:19 wrote:And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

The Americans prosper in the land and abide by the Christian standards set forth in the Bible.

1 Nephi 13:20 wrote:And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them.

The Unites States of America is lifted by the power of God and is above all other nations on earth and resides on the choicest land upon the face of the earth -- the Promised Land. It’s the very same land in which was inherited previously by God’s covenant people. God intervenes in order to preserve the poor Indians (Lamanites) who have suffered at the hands of white men.

1 Nephi 13:30 wrote:Nevertheless, thou beholdest that the Gentiles who have gone forth out of captivity, and have been lifted up by the power of God above all other nations, upon the face of the land which is choice above all other lands, which is the land that the Lord God hath covenanted with thy father that his seed should have for the land of their inheritance; wherefore, thou seest that the Lord God will not suffer that the Gentiles will utterly destroy the mixture of thy seed, which are among thy brethren.
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Re: Here come the Gentiles!

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Shulem wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:06 pm

There is ONE nation in which God delivered out of the hands of all other nations: The United States of America which was founded on the very land of promise inhabited by Nephi, Alma, Mormon, Moroni, and Ether! God bless America.
I don't want to speak for Dan, but my impression is that his methodology is to get as close as possible to the perspective held by Americans in the early 19th century, before the political boundaries that we're accustomed to were set. Remember America didn't really have a western or southern boundary in the 1820s. The Lewis and Clark Expedition was only a few years previous. Etienne Provost passed through the area now known as Provo Utah just 5 years previous to the publication of the Book of Mormon. That same decade the first Americans arrived in Hawaii, which wouldn't become part of the United States of America for another 129 years. Alaska was Russian and Arizona and Utah were a part of Mexico.

Point being, Joseph Smith wouldn't have been very dogmatic about "America" when the Book of Mormon was being written.

My approach has been to drill in even closer to what Joseph Smith and Martin Harris would have been thinking in 1828 when the translation work began. The most relevant event would have been Martin's expedition to show the leading scholars of America the characters inscribed on the Golden Plates, and "get them translated". The primary scholar Harris met with was Samuel Mitchell, a prominent naturalist and antiquarian who, coincidentally, wrote the foreword to Gilbert J. Hunt's The Late War. Doctor Mitchell "examined the characters—and compared them with other hieroglyphics—thought them very curious—and [said] they were the characters of a nation now extinct which he named."

In my opinion, the nation that Mitchell identified as the source of the characters on the Anthon Transcript, would be the nation that Joseph and Harris used as their template in the 116 pages.
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