Book of Mormon Geography

[Zosimus]

But the text says nothing about Lehi going east other than their trek across Arabia. The general description between Lehi’s old world and the land of promise is that its separated by water as if water is required to form that separation.

The text tells us the direction the ball took them in 1 Nephi 17:

"And it came to pass that we did again take our journey in the wilderness; and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth."

When do you suppose Nephi wrote the words in 1 Nephi 17? Was he etching them into the plates with his chisel every morning in his tent to give us a day-to-day play-by-play along the Frankincense Trail, or was he sitting in the promised land, telling us all about the trip he'd just taken?

Answer: Nephi told us the ball sent them eastward after he arrived in the promised land.

Knowing Nephi had already crossed the waters when he wrote that they did "travel nearly eastward from that time forth", I don't see much support for a turn west or south or north. They traveled east, from that time they turned east in the wilderness until they arrived in the promised land.

The whole point of the story was to flee out of Jerusalem for their personal safety. Babylon was coming and the Lord told them to get out of Jerusalem right away! They couldn’t even cash out and take their prized possessions. They took off in a hurry because they were commanded to do so. So, the Mediterranean is NOT part of the picture nor a means to deliver them from certain destruction had they remained in the vicinity.

This doesn't feel like a very strong argument for going all the way around Africa.

Book of Mormon God was hardly concerned with their comforts and forced those who took long voyages to do so in miserable circumstances. Lehi’s family was forced to suffer much hunger, fatigue, and subsisted on raw meat much of the time while in the wilderness. The Jaredites were forced to live like sardines in nasty stinky cans. God didn’t give a damn about whether they were comfortable or how long the voyage would take. The poor Jaredites vomited all over themselves as God thrashed them about in the midst of the deep. What horrible way to go!

Again, this doesn't feel like a very strong argument for the ball taking them all the way around Africa instead of through the Mediterranean.

So, God wasn’t concerned about how many miles they had to trek in the Arabian desert or how many miles they were stuck at sea. So there is no challenging what God thinks is right. If turning right is what God wanted because it seems biblical, then right is the turn they must make. Of course, all of this is simply an exercise to get to the more important parts. And believe me, we are getting there. I will convert you to Delmarva if it’s the last thing I ever do.

OK we have two options here: right or left.

You argue that God sent them right because turning right was somehow Biblical, and there's no challenging what God thinks is right. I know that sounds like I'm oversimplifying your argument, but that's honestly what your argument seems to be.

I argue that God sent them left because we have another pseudepigraphal text that tells us about a desert-dwelling family that lived in Jerusalem during the time that the prophet Jeremiah was calling upon the people of Jerusalem to repent, the family was carried by God across the great waters to a land that was given to them by God for their preservation. That land was in the east.

People have been writing stories since time began, both fiction and nonfiction. And there are so many stories and so many ways to tell them. Although your example above is interesting, it hardly serves as a precedent in influencing young Joseph to tell his own (fiction) story -– unless you can show he read the story and it may have therefore influenced him with his own novel. I would find that very interesting.

First of all, the story of Zosima has the same plotline we find in 1 Nephi.

6th century BC during the time of the prophet Jeremiah
Desert-dwelling family living in Jerusalem
Jeremiah calling people to repentance, else Jerusalem will be destroyed
God transports righteous family across water to a land set apart for their preservation

Its very striking that the Narrative of Zosimus and the First Book of Nephi are based in the same city, in the same time period. We even have a couple overlapping characters like Jeremiah and Aminadab. Let me touch on Aminadab quickly. The Narrative of Zosimus tells us of the Sons of Aminadab and how they were rescued from a prison by an angel that carried them through a dark cloud and across the great waters. The Book of Mormon also includes a character named Aminadab, a Nephite who was able to peer through a dark cloud surrounding a prison as an angel rescued Lehi and Nephi.

There are many other noteworthy similarities between the two texts, you can read about it here.

[Shulem]

But the text says nothing about Lehi going east other than their trek across Arabia. The general description between Lehi’s old world and the land of promise is that its separated by water as if water is required to form that separation.

The text tells us the direction the ball took them in 1 Nephi 17:

"And it came to pass that we did again take our journey in the wilderness; and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth."

At that point in their sojourn, they had already travelled considerably south from their homeland. They had pretty much maintained the “same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the  Red Sea.” So, when they left Israel they departed into the wilderness and kept within fertile parts along the borders of the Red Sea. Their object was to follow the fertile parts of the land and those can be found along the coast. Eventually their turn was more eastward but at that point it can be safely reasoned they were deep into Arabia.

It doesn't say they traveled nearly eastward for a few hundred miles and then went south for a few thousand and then west for a few thousand and then north for a few thousand and then west again for a few thousands more.

The record is not a travel log based on milage and how long it took to get from point A to point B. The main object of the story is how they ended up on the southern coast of Arabia after sojourning for 8 years. That’s what counts!

Nephi tells us they went eastward (or nearly eastward) from that moment they turned left in the Arabian desert, until Nephi scratched those words into the plates.

Yeah, they made a left turn and pretty much went eastward from therein out. Onward to Bountiful wherever that was. Nephi scratched his words on plates some 30 years later in the land of Nephi.

When do you suppose Nephi wrote the words in 1 Nephi 17? Was he etching them into the plates with his chisel every morning in his tent along the Frankincense Trail, or was he sitting in the promised land, telling us all about the trip he'd just taken?

Did you miss the memo? Nephi kept a notebook binder in his backpack and maintained a daily diary. When he arrived in the promised land he gathered up all his notes and recorded them on plates.

Answer: Nephi told us the ball sent them eastward after he arrived in the promised land.

No matter where you are on God’s green earth, east is always east and when you’re looking east you will witness the rising of the sun. That is an ever constant! The only direction we are told about the entire journey is on land. We are given no directions on sea other than the fact that they would have originally pushed off going south. That is a given.

Knowing Nephi had already crossed the waters when he wrote that they did "travel nearly eastward from that time forth", I don't see much support for a turn west or south or north. They traveled east, from that time they turned east in the wilderness until they arrived in the promised land.

They traveled nearly eastward from that time forth until they came to Bountiful.

END. OF. THE. LINE.

To assume that the voyage continued eastward based on the latest direction of their land trek is totally unwarranted and is not what the text implies. You can imagine that if you want, I can’t stop you. But that is not what the record says. You can assume an eastern voyage on that idea alone but it’s based on your imagination and is not what the record states.

You will recall that soon after they set voyage that there was some partying on the ship and it seems that certain wives may have been performing some rude striptease dancing and Nephi was quite upset about that. Nephi was bound and that is when the compass ceased to work wherefore, they knew not whither they should steer the ship. This implies that they did not know which direction to go, let alone go east. The point being that had they simply been following a prescribed course east there would be little problem doing so because the sun and the stars are constant in leading the way.

The whole point of the story was to flee out of Jerusalem for their personal safety. Babylon was coming and the Lord told them to get out of Jerusalem right away! They couldn’t even cash out and take their prized possessions. They took off in a hurry because they were commanded to do so. So, the Mediterranean is NOT part of the picture nor a means to deliver them from certain destruction had they remained in the vicinity.

This doesn't feel like a very strong argument for going all the way around Africa.

The argument is to get out of town or die. Who cares if God makes them go all around Africa. They can ride it out on the ship as the wind blows them along. Right?

Book of Mormon God was hardly concerned with their comforts and forced those who took long voyages to do so in miserable circumstances. Lehi’s family was forced to suffer much hunger, fatigue, and subsisted on raw meat much of the time while in the wilderness. The Jaredites were forced to live like sardines in nasty stinky cans. God didn’t give a damn about whether they were comfortable or how long the voyage would take. The poor Jaredites vomited all over themselves as God thrashed them about in the midst of the deep. What horrible way to go!

Again, this doesn't feel like a very strong argument for the ball taking them all the way around Africa instead of through the Mediterranean.

Ha! What is not a strong argument is your weak rebuttals for my above statements. Total copout on your part. Mere handwaving. A useless gesture.

So, God wasn’t concerned about how many miles they had to trek in the Arabian desert or how many miles they were stuck at sea. So there is no challenging what God thinks is right. If turning right is what God wanted because it seems biblical, then right is the turn they must make. Of course, all of this is simply an exercise to get to the more important parts. And believe me, we are getting there. I will convert you to Delmarva if it’s the last thing I ever do.

OK we have two options here: right or left.

Yes, after pushing off from the coast they are then presented with a choice. The working ball made it for them.

You argue that God sent them right because turning right was somehow Biblical, and there's no challenging what God thinks is right. I know that sounds like I'm oversimplifying your argument, but that's honestly what your argument seems to be.

It’s not so much that I’m arguing for that, per se. I’m considering the ideas of what a pious Jew might think in terms of directions and how his God will guide him. It seems that in the Bible, right is always right, and with that it carries a great deal of symbolism. But I’m not basing my conclusion on that exercise alone.

I argue that God sent them left because we have another pseudepigraphal text that tells us about a desert-dwelling family that lived in Jerusalem during the time that the prophet Jeremiah was calling upon the people of Jerusalem to repent, the family was carried by God across the great waters to a land that was given to them by God for their preservation. That land was in the east.

Okay, fine. That’s nice. Was young Joseph (Author of Book of Mormon) aware of the story of Zosima whereby he could steal ideas from it and incorporate them into his own pseudepigraphal work?

First of all, the story of Zosima is about a desert-dwelling family that lived in Jerusalem during the time that the prophet Jeremiah was calling upon the people of Jerusalem to repent, the family was carried by God across the great waters to a land that was given to them by God for their preservation. That's the same plotline we find in 1 Nephi.

6th century BC during the time of the prophet Jeremiah
Desert-dwelling family living in Jerusalem
Jeremiah calling people to repentance, else Jerusalem will be destroyed
God transports righteous family across water to a land set apart for their preservation

Do we know if Joseph had a copy of the story of Zosimus?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

Its very striking that the Narrative of Zosimus and the First Book of Nephi are based in the same city, in the same time period. We even have a couple overlapping characters like Jeremiah and Aminadab. Let me touch on Aminadab quickly. The Narrative of Zosimus tells us of the Sons of Aminadab and how they were rescued from a prison by an angel that carried them through a dark cloud and across the great waters. The Book of Mormon also includes a character named Aminadab, a Nephite who was able to peer through a dark cloud surrounding a prison as an angel rescued Lehi and Nephi.

Yes, these are somewhat striking and I can’t rule it out that Smith may have known something about Zosimus. Smith borrowed many things from many sources. BUT, even if he did, that doesn’t mean he had to follow it to a que and not alter it to suit his own purposes.

There are many other noteworthy similarities between the two texts, you can read about it here.

I will be happy to check that out when time permits. Thanks.

[Zosimus]

They traveled nearly eastward from that time forth until they came to Bountiful.

END. OF. THE. LINE.

All we are given is Nephi's comment that they went nearly eastward from 1 Nephi 17 forth. He doesn't say they ever stopped going eastward. You can make the assumption that they did, but it doesn't come from Nephi, or the text. Nearly eastward was the direction.

To assume that the voyage continued eastward based on the latest direction of their land trek is totally unwarranted and is not what the text implies. You can imagine that if you want, I can’t stop you. But that is not what the record says. You can assume an eastern voyage on that idea alone but it’s based on your imagination and is not what the record states.

To assume that the voyage turned right is likewise unwarranted and is without textual support. Ain't nobody going to stop you from having an opinion on it. I can have my opinion on the matter also, thanks.

The point being that had they simply been following a prescribed course east there would be little problem doing so because the sun and the stars are constant in leading the way.

Err, when Nephi was on the boat following the directions on the ball, he wouldn't yet know that their direction would be eastward all the way, until they got there. The ball was a pointer, it wasn't Google Maps.

The argument is to get out of town or die. Who cares if God makes them go all around Africa. They can ride it out on the ship as the wind blows them along. Right?

Probably the only people that care would be those that look at the map and ask, why would they go all the way around Africa, when they could have just gone in a straight line west through the Mediterranean. Its simple, your argument loses strength when you back it up with comments that suggest that God was so desperate to save Lehi (or to make him suffer, not sure which side of this you are taking) that he sent him on what would have been the most perilous journey in human history, around the continent of Africa in a 6th century BC boat, back up to the Mediterranean and then across the Atlantic to safety in Delmarva.

Thanks but no thanks God. Odds of survival much better under captivity in Babylon to be honest.

You do see this argument for a right turn around Africa has fallen apart yes?

Ha! What is not a strong argument is your weak rebuttals for my above statements. Total copout on your part. Mere handwaving. A useless gesture.

Nah, read the above. The argument that going around Africa was God's way of preserving the lives of Lehi and his family is weak. It's not at all logical, and pointing that out is hardly handwaving. To the contrary, your attempts to get them around Africa feel strained.

It’s not so much that I’m arguing for that, per se. I’m considering the ideas of what a pious Jew might think in terms of directions and how his God will guide him. It seems that in the Bible, right is always right, and with that it carries a great deal of symbolism. But I’m not basing my conclusion on that exercise alone.

From the perspective of a pious Jew, which direction did the Temple of Solomon face? Which direction did the Tabernacle face? What do the words for east (qedem, motsa, mizrach) and west (achor, yam, ma’arav) mean in the Hebrew language? Most importantly, what is the "default" direction for a pious Jew?

Okay, fine. That’s nice. Was young Joseph (Author of Book of Mormon) aware of the story of Zosima whereby he could steal ideas from it and incorporate them into his own pseudepigraphal work?

There are a few different paths that the plot of the Narrative of Zosimus could have been transmitted to the author of the Book of Mormon.

Do we know if Joseph had a copy of the story of Zosimus?

[ ] Yes
[X] No

[Shulem]

They traveled nearly eastward from that time forth until they came to Bountiful.

END. OF. THE. LINE.

All we are given is Nephi's comment that they went nearly eastward from 1 Nephi 17 forth. He doesn't say they ever stopped going eastward. You can make the assumption that they did, but it doesn't come from Nephi, or the text. Nearly eastward was the direction.

Recall how Laman and Lemuel complained (17:20) to Nephi after they arrived in Bountiful and learned they were commissioned by God to build a ship. They murmured about their many wanderings in the wilderness saying “we have wandered in the wilderness for these many years” as if they were aimlessly wandering for 8 miserable years until on the last leg they turned eastward and finally found relief at Bountiful. It’s like they were wandering about with no direction or plan other than to follow the director or ball wherever it led them. Nothing was said about a trek eastward to Eden or to a land where others were located. They were lost in the wilderness and relying wholly on the ball to lead them. They didn’t know where they were going other than towards the promised land which was their only object in mind.

To assume that the voyage turned right is likewise unwarranted and is without textual support. Ain't nobody going to stop you from having an opinion on it. I can have my opinion on the matter also, thanks.

So you admit that your position that they turned left is likewise unwarranted without textual support. But I have textual support because I’m trying to get Lehi to the promised land so Moroni can bury the plates in New York State. Getting the plates to Cumorah is a number 1 priority and I will not shirk in my duty to do that!

The point being that had they simply been following a prescribed course east there would be little problem doing so because the sun and the stars are constant in leading the way.

Err, when Nephi was on the boat following the directions on the ball, he wouldn't yet know that their direction would be eastward all the way, until they got there. The ball was a pointer, it wasn't Google Maps.

Zosimus, you couldn’t be more wrong! Lehi was aware of cardinal directions every single day regardless of what the direction of the ball indicated. They woke up daily to the rising sun and knew which direction was east. In the evening when the sun set, they knew which direction was west. With or without the ball, at night they could lift their eyes up at the sky and see the stars and know their course thereby. There was no need for Google maps or a magical ball to know what direction they were headed on a daily basis.

Probably the only people that care would be those that look at the map and ask, why would they go all the way around Africa, when they could have just gone in a straight line west through the Mediterranean. Its simple, your argument loses strength when you back it up with comments that suggest that God was so desperate to save Lehi (or to make him suffer, not sure which side of this you are taking) that he sent him on what would have been the most perilous journey in human history, around the continent of Africa in a 6th century BC boat, back up to the Mediterranean and then across the Atlantic to safety in Delmarva.

Thanks but no thanks God. Odds of survival much better under captivity in Babylon to be honest.

Look, Joseph Smith wrote the story. It’s his baby. If something doesn’t make sense, please don’t blame me for pointing it out. Smith elected to send Lehi around Africa and throw the Jaredites on barges for nearly a year. I will agree that nothing could be more stupid than Joseph Smith’s stories. I am trying to reason this out with you and show you that all Smith cared about was getting the plates to New York.

You do see this argument for a right turn around Africa has fallen apart yes?

No, not at all. I do see you as being somewhat stubborn if you don’t mind me saying so.

The argument that going around Africa was God's way of preserving the lives of Lehi and his family is weak. It's not at all logical, and pointing that out is hardly handwaving. To the contrary, your attempts to get them around Africa feel strained.

Look, I don’t find anything about the Book of Mormon as logical. The whole thing reads like a fairytale. The ridiculous long life of Enos living to be 179 years and the long lives recorded in 4th Nephi goes to show that Joseph Smith was beyond reason and just making stuff up.

From the perspective of a pious Jew, which direction did the Temple of Solomon face? Which direction did the Tabernacle face? What do the words for east (qedem, motsa, mizrach) and west (achor, yam, ma’arav) mean in the Hebrew language? Most importantly, what is the "default" direction for a pious Jew?

I’ll let you ask Nephi. He knew far more about temple construction and orientation than I do:

“I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

There are a few different paths that the plot of the Narrative of Zosimus could have been transmitted to the author of the Book of Mormon.

Okay, so he may have gleaned information about it. I can appreciate that.

[Shulem]

If Captain Kidd can do it, so can Lehi!

It was a miracle!

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no  commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

[Shulem]

I agree with the ROUTES, but the Heartlander’s are wrong about where Lehi landed because they take the Book of Mormon literally and are blinded to the idea that the Book of Mormon is pure fiction.

Lehi sailed away from Arabia and turned right.

[Zosimus]

RThey were lost in the wilderness and relying wholly on the ball to lead them. They didn’t know where they were going other than towards the promised land which was their only object in mind.

That's right, it wasn't until Nephi was in the promised land, reflecting back on those wanderings in the wilderness, that he was able to inform us which direction they had taken. Nearly eastward, from 1 Nephi 17 forth.

Zosimus, you couldn’t be more wrong! Lehi was aware of cardinal directions every single day regardless of what the direction of the ball indicated. They woke up daily to the rising sun and knew which direction was east. In the evening when the sun set, they knew which direction was west. With or without the ball, at night they could lift their eyes up at the sky and see the stars and know their course thereby. There was no need for Google maps or a magical ball to know what direction they were headed on a daily basis.

Sure I agree with you that they knew the direction the sun was rising and setting every day.

Pious Jews are always mindful of their position in the world relative to Solomon's Temple. Like Daniel in Babylon, opening his windows three times a day to pray towards Jerusalem, Nephi would also be looking at the position of the rising sun every morning so he would know which way he should pray. Every evening Nephi would be looking at the stars in the sky, so he wouldn't lose track of Jerusalem. He would have done this the entire course of their journey. So its significant that, while seated in the promised land, Nephi chose to write "we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth" instead of something like "And it came to pass that we went towards the rising sun by foot, and then we sailed in boat with the rising sun on our left side for many days. Then we sailed a spell away from the rising sun, until we turned northward keeping the rising sun on our right side and finally we ventured out across the great waters with the rising sun at our backs until we arrived in the promised land."

Nephi knew where he was. He was east of Jerusalem because after the ball started pointing their way towards the promised land, he tells us they traveled nearly eastward from that moment forth.

Look, Joseph Smith wrote the story. It’s his baby. If something doesn’t make sense, please don’t blame me for pointing it out. Smith elected to send Lehi around Africa and throw the Jaredites on barges for nearly a year. I will agree that nothing could be more stupid than Joseph Smith’s stories. I am trying to reason this out with you and show you that all Smith cared about was getting the plates to New York.

Look, I don’t find anything about the Book of Mormon as logical. The whole thing reads like a fairytale. The ridiculous long life of Enos living to be 179 years and the long lives recorded in 4th Nephi goes to show that Joseph Smith was beyond reason and just making stuff up.

Hold up. Are we not doing this anymore? ➜ "Let’s try an experiment and see where it goes .. Let’s suppose the Book of Mormon really is a historical record and there really was a Lehi that left Jerusalem and set sail for a land of promise in a place where Lehi could hardly imagine."

[Zosimus]

If Captain Kidd can do it, so can Lehi!

Ah I get it now. Captain Kidd.

Hey, remember how Captain Kidd's boat was called the Kedah Merchant? And that the founder of Kedah was named Maroni?

Get this, that pseudepigraphal text I linked to above called The Walking of Zosima to Rahman? The one about the sons of Aminadab that were carried by God during the time of the Prophet Jeremiah from Jerusalem to a peninsula known as Rahman that had been hidden from the outside world, just for them, for their preservation?

Guess what Kedah was called in the 1820s:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Reman

[Shulem]

RThey were lost in the wilderness and relying wholly on the ball to lead them. They didn’t know where they were going other than towards the promised land which was their only object in mind.

That's right, it wasn't until Nephi was in the promised land, reflecting back on those wanderings in the wilderness, that he was able to inform us which direction they had taken. Nearly eastward, from 1 Nephi 17 forth.

I think we can assume that Smith assumed they took notes on their journey and recorded many of the events that took place along the way. A formal making of plates and telling the story later in official capacity is a marked event in the account. But the 8 years in the wilderness was noted and stories were maintained. The number of days they were at sea on their voyage surely was recorded in the 116-page Harris manuscript but unfortunately Smith could not recall that number when he retold the story to Cowdery. Hence, that is why “space of many days” happens to pop up from time to time. It’s inconceivable that the number of days they were at sea is not recorded. That is one of the most important journeys recorded in Smith’s novel and he left out the number.

Sure I agree with you that they knew the direction the sun was rising and setting every day.

<snip>

Nephi knew where he was. He was east of Jerusalem because after the ball started pointing their way towards the promised land, he tells us they traveled nearly eastward from that moment forth.

Look at the globe and you will see that everything south of Jerusalem leads eastward unless you enter the Sinai and head westward into Egypt. The Red Sea acts as a barrier by cutting the west off and forces an eastward movement which is exactly what they did when trying to stay in the most fertile parts of the land. They mostly journeyed south-east. Later, near the end of the sojourn they took an eastward trek and ended in Bountiful. You will also notice that the parallel line between the upper Red Sea and the upper Persian Gulf serves to force anyone traveling below that line to head only south and east. The only way to avoid going east is to head north into Babylon or Persia.

I’m confident that Joseph Smith was looking at the globe before he related the story to Harris and Cowdery.

Hold up. Are we not doing this anymore? ➜ "Let’s try an experiment and see where it goes .. Let’s suppose the Book of Mormon really is a historical record and there really was a Lehi that left Jerusalem and set sail for a land of promise in a place where Lehi could hardly imagine."

Yes, I have been doing the experiment which is to examine two control groups under a microscope: the first being NONFICTION and the other being FICTION. I took consideration into how the God of the Bible may have directed them to the right based on symbolism and strictness of things that are at right are right. And things that are at left are wrong. That was my view of the nonfiction part of the experiment which you were not overly impressed by.

[Shulem]

Ah I get it now. Captain Kidd.

Hey, remember how Captain Kidd's boat was called the Kedah Merchant? And that the founder of Kedah was named Maroni?

Yeah, and how Kidd sailed to the Comoro Islands and then around the horn of Africa to eventually make his way up the Susquehanna River.

Location, location, location!