Book of Mormon Geography

[Zosimus]

Zosimus, please pay attention. Columbus set his own compass and did his own thing in 1492. That’s entirely a different story.

Lehi was commanded to follow the directions on the ball and go wherever it pointed. That is the point of this exercise. Which direction did God want him to go? Right or left? The decision was God’s, not Lehi’s!

[ ] Right
[ ] Left

I'm paying attention my friend. I'm saying that if you are going to try and make an educated guess here, then it seems like the answer is in the comment that Nephi himself inserts (assuming he read it off the brass plates) into Isaiah in 1 Nephi 21:13: "For the feet of those who are in the east shall be established." Nephi is referring to the lost tribes that God had carried off to the east.

One more argument for the ball leading them south, then left (eastward), is in 1 Nephi 17:1

"And it came to pass that we did again take our journey in the wilderness; and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth."

The answer is right there. The ball sent them eastward, and they traveled that direction from that time forth.

[Moksha]

The Chinese first used compasses not for navigation, but for spiritual purposes. They used the magnetic devices to organize buildings and other things according to feng shui, the ancient practice of harmonizing an environment according to the "laws of Heaven." The Chinese began using compasses for navigation in the 11th Century AD and Europeans began using compasses for navigation in the 12th Century.

[Shulem]

I'm paying attention my friend. I'm saying that if you are going to try and make an educated guess here, then it seems like the answer is in the comment that Nephi himself inserts (assuming he read it off the brass plates) into Isaiah in 1 Nephi 21:13: "For the feet of those who are in the east shall be established." Nephi is referring to the lost tribes that God had carried off to the east.

One more argument for the ball leading them south, then left (eastward), is in 1 Nephi 17:1

"And it came to pass that we did again take our journey in the wilderness; and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth."

The answer is right there. The ball sent them eastward, and they traveled that direction from that time forth.

That’s a nifty supposition, Zosimus, with regard to how the magic ball may have steered them. It’s creative and makes perfect sense from a certain point of view. If the object of their mission was to go eastward where those who are already established, onward towards Eden or where other tribes may be, then that would necessitate a left turn at the helm, do you think? But If God wanted them to go east, they could have simply made their journey east on land rather than head to the southern coast to sail away into the unknown. So, that’s a bit of a contradiction for an eastern trek on land. The point of this particular exercise is to realize that God wasn’t going to lead them to Antarctica but with the director was going to steer them either right or left. That is the only choice and according to the story, God made that choice for them. Follow the director!

On land, they traveled mostly eastward while in the wilderness with a southern bent. Otherwise, they could have gone into Egypt or skirted the Red Sea. But as it was, they made their way to the ocean of the southern coast of Arabia where the sea would now become their way and their course would be set upon the water. Lehi’s feet were no longer upon dry land. Where is the promised land? How would they get there? Follow the ball! The director will show them the way!

And where is the land of promise? Back east, you say? We are informed that this land is choice above all other lands and moreover that this land should be  kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations lest it be overrun. So, it seems to be virgin territory separated by many waters and a land that according to prophecy would at a future day be discovered by Columbus and the Gentiles.

So, it doesn’t appear that God intended to take them east among known lands or with the lost tribes. But they were to be separated from their homeland and nations thereabouts. No, they did not venture east. They went to the southernmost coast and commended themselves into the ocean wherever God would take them.

And, so, that is why I mentioned Ecclesiastes and the wisdom of Solomon wherein a right turn could be construed as the right way in God. I am simply looking for a spiritual reason in which God may have used in a genuine historical context.

[Shulem]

The Chinese first used compasses not for navigation, but for spiritual purposes. They used the magnetic devices to organize buildings and other things according to feng shui, the ancient practice of harmonizing an environment according to the "laws of Heaven." The Chinese began using compasses for navigation in the 11th Century AD and Europeans began using compasses for navigation in the 12th Century.

Which is exactly my point in looking for spiritual reasons for why God might turn right in this particular case. It could be argued that turning right and left has no spiritual bearing whatsoever as Isaiah said, “And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.” The point being, do as God directs! But with that said, I’ve pointed out earlier that scripture does favor the right hand as being in God’s presence. So, why not expect that God would have Lehi steer right and head west after pushing off into the mysterious ocean.

That was my entire point of this exercise. In this case the obvious route would go around Africa and lead into the Americas.

[Zosimus]

But If God wanted them to go east, they could have simply made their journey east on land rather than head to the southern coast to sail away into the unknown.

If they were going east, I guess the ball could have simply taken them by foot for thousands of miles through some of the roughest terrain known to man. Or they could have sailed by the maritime trading routes, like everyone else before the formation of the overland Silk Road.

But you bring up a good point. This ball doesn't seem to be very smart. I mean, if they were going west, they could have just sailed through the Mediterranean. It is pretty much a straight shot to Delmarva. Would have saved them all that time going around all of Africa and back up again.



South, and then right for a bit to get past the Horn of Africa, after which the ball would send them north again, before finally turning left to go west across the Pacific, is a really inefficient way to get from Jerusalem to Delmarva. It's circuitous enough to really challenge your case for a "south and then make a divine right" path. In fact, I don't see much reason to even argue that the ball knew what it was doing by sending Lehi to the right.

And where is the land of promise? Back east, you say? We are informed that this land is choice above all other lands and moreover that this land should be  kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations lest it be overrun. So, it seems to be virgin territory separated by many waters and a land that according to prophecy would at a future day be discovered by Columbus and the Gentiles.

There's an interesting little Jewish story, about 18 chapters long, that was written in the early centuries of the Christian era about a group of desert nomads that lived in Jerusalem in the 6th century BC, and were carried by God across the Great Waters to a promised land, or paradise, in the east that had been set apart for them. There, God promised this righteous family that they would live in isolation from the World of Vanity with angels in place to prevent visitors from the "world" from crossing the waters to their little Biblical paradise. This land was known as Rahman, it was an island/peninsula in Southeast Asia.

So there is precedence for this argument that I'm making and you can read about it in The Theme of the Earthly Paradise in the Ancient Apocrypha 1: Walking of Zosima to Rahmanam

So, it doesn’t appear that God intended to take them east among known lands or with the lost tribes. But they were to be separated from their homeland and nations thereabouts.

And, so, that is why I mentioned Ecclesiastes and the wisdom of Solomon wherein a right turn could be construed as the right way in God. I am simply looking for a spiritual reason in which God may have used in a genuine historical context.

I don't know of any precedent in ancient Judeo-Christian texts for God carrying his people west across the great waters. But there are texts that tell of God taking his people east, to an earthly paradise, set apart for their prosperity and preservation. That's why I think they went left, instead of right.

[Shulem]

If they were going east, I guess the ball could have simply taken them by foot for thousands of miles through some of the roughest terrain known to man. Or they could have sailed by the maritime trading routes, like everyone else before the formation of the overland Silk Road.

Yes, IF they were going east as you suggest...

But the text says nothing about Lehi going east other than their trek across Arabia. The general description between Lehi’s old world and the land of promise is that its separated by water as if water is required to form that separation.

But you bring up a good point. This ball doesn't seem to be very smart. I mean, if they were going west, they could have just sailed through the Mediterranean. It is pretty much a straight shot to Delmarva. Would have saved them all that time going around all of Africa and back up again.

The whole point of the story was to flee out of Jerusalem for their personal safety. Babylon was coming and the Lord told them to get out of Jerusalem right away! They couldn’t even cash out and take their prized possessions. They took off in a hurry because they were commanded to do so. So, the Mediterranean is NOT part of the picture nor a means to deliver them from certain destruction had they remained in the vicinity.

It may interest you to know that I have considered the Mediterranean route as a means to America. You might find this thread, somewhat enlightening because that’s exactly what I believe the Jaredites did according to Joseph Smith’s fantasy.

Shulem Cracks the Book of Ether! Jaredite Expedition & Geography is Revealed!

South, and then right for a bit to get past the Horn of Africa, after which the ball would send them north again, before finally turning left to go west across the Pacific, is a really inefficient way to get from Jerusalem to Delmarva. It's circuitous enough to really challenge your case for a "south and then make a divine right" path. In fact, I don't see much reason to even argue that the ball knew what it was doing by sending Lehi to the right.

Book of Mormon God was hardly concerned with their comforts and forced those who took long voyages to do so in miserable circumstances. Lehi’s family was forced to suffer much hunger, fatigue, and subsisted on raw meat much of the time while in the wilderness. The Jaredites were forced to live like sardines in nasty stinky cans. God didn’t give a damn about whether they were comfortable or how long the voyage would take. The poor Jaredites vomited all over themselves as God thrashed them about in the midst of the deep. What horrible way to go!

So, God wasn’t concerned about how many miles they had to trek in the Arabian desert or how many miles they were stuck at sea. So there is no challenging what God thinks is right. If turning right is what God wanted because it seems biblical, then right is the turn they must make. Of course, all of this is simply an exercise to get to the more important parts. And believe me, we are getting there. I will convert you to Delmarva if it’s the last thing I ever do.

There's an interesting little Jewish story, about 18 chapters long, that was written in the early centuries of the Christian era about a group of desert nomads that lived in Jerusalem in the 6th century BC, and were carried by God across the Great Waters to a promised land, or paradise, in the east that had been set apart for them. There, God promised this righteous family that they would live in isolation from the World of Vanity with angels in place to prevent visitors from the "world" from crossing the waters to their little Biblical paradise. This land was known as Rahman, it was an island/peninsula in Southeast Asia.

So there is precedence for this argument that I'm making and you can read about it in The Theme of the Earthly Paradise in the Ancient Apocrypha 1: Walking of Zosima to Rahmanam

People have been writing stories since time began, both fiction and nonfiction. And there are so many stories and so many ways to tell them. Although your example above is interesting, it hardly serves as a precedent in influencing young Joseph to tell his own (fiction) story -– unless you can show he read the story and it may have therefore influenced him with his own novel. I would find that very interesting.

I don't know of any precedent in ancient Judeo-Christian texts for God carrying his people west across the great waters. But there are texts that tell of God taking his people east, to an earthly paradise, set apart for their prosperity and preservation. That's why I think they went left, instead of right.

Well, there is first time for everything! And we get a lot of that from Joseph Smith. How else is Moroni going to get to Cumorah to bury the plates? He needed passage to the USA.

[Moksha]

This ball doesn't seem to be very smart. I mean, if they were going west, they could have just sailed through the Mediterranean.

The posters at the old FAIR board made the point that Phonecian radar would have detected a Mormon ship the minute it set sail on the Mediterranean. The righteousness of the Lehite Company would have been like a super high-powered beacon for those infidel Phoenicians.

Too bad God did not offer to furnish a cloaking field, but the sci-fi writers of those early latter days had not conceived of the electronic detection systems of the past.

Not doing logical straightforward actions proves it is all true.

[Moksha]

They took off in a hurry because they were commanded to do so.

Plus they were dodging murder and burglary charges.

[Shulem]

They took off in a hurry because they were commanded to do so.

Plus they were dodging murder and burglary charges.

You are correct. By his own confession, Nephi was a murderer. He is not the kind of person I would want to be around.

[Shulem]

The true author of the Book of Mormon (Joseph Smith) presented the “land of promise” as a place which could only be reached by way of sea. Nobody could be led to the land of promise unless they CROSS the sea to get there. This information is built into the theme of the Book of Mormon which separates the Old World from the New. I have touched on this quite a bit in my threads. Smith was well acquainted with the world globe.

What’s interesting about the narrative given by the character of Nephi is that he did not know that the land of promise was on the other side of the ocean UNTILL he was commanded to build a ship! We are not informed that Lehi would ever set sail anywhere until Nephi went up into the mountain at Bountiful on the coastline and was instructed to build a ship. Here is the narrative leading up to that point:

• shall be led to a  land of promise; yea, even a land which I have prepared for you; yea, a land which is choice above all other lands

• they shall  prosper in the  land of promise

• we journeyed in the wilderness towards the land of promise

• we should be led with one accord into the land of promise

Then, in chapter 12, Nephi sees in vision the land of promise:

• And I looked and beheld the land of promise

Then, in chapter 13, Nephi sees in vision the church of the devil:

• And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren (This is when Joseph Smith first introduces the idea of Lehi going overseas to the promised land)

• And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters (Joseph Smith introduces Christopher Columbus and European Gentiles who went forth upon the many waters to discover the Lamanite remnants who were in the promised land.)

• they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters (American freedom had in the New World was only possible by sailing across the ocean.

• And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them (The Revolutionary War was fought in America which is the land of promise)

Then, in chapter 17, we are officially informed that Nephi will be setting sail to the land of promise:

• Thou shalt  construct a ship, after the  manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters (ACROSS these waters to the land of promise)

• Our brother is a fool, for he thinketh that he can build a ship; yea, and he also thinketh that he can cross these great waters (CROSS the great waters)

Thus, the land of promise can only be reached via shipping. There is no other way to get there, period! Trek eastward on land and you’ll never get there. You must set sail!

End of story!

PS. Turn right.