Book of Mormon Geography

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Zosimus
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Re: Dan Vogel and Captain Kidd

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:02 am
It makes total sense that borrowings of names such as Cumorah and Moroni follow the same route in which they were taken. It makes sense that if Joseph stole names he also used the route that got him to those names and beyond.

Hello Chesapeake Bay!
The starting point of Kidd's pirate adventure was 25 leagues off the coast of Cochin (home of the black jews and their brass plates) where Kidd captured the Kedah Merchant. Refer to posts above for the significance of both Cochin and Kedah.

What better name for the guardian of the Kedah Merchant booty than Maroni, the founder of Kedah.

What are the odds that Joseph could have picked the name of Maroni as the treasure guardian of the Kedah treasure randomly out of a hat?
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Shulem
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Asia is DOA

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:11 am
I should make a disclaimer at this point. My approach to the internal geography of the Book of Mormon has been to start with a clean slate.

Nephi distinguished the difference between the lands of earth in which people dwell. Particular mention is given for the promised land in which he dwelt both in his own day as well as in the last days.

2 Nephi 27:1 wrote:But, behold, in the last days, or in the days of the Gentiles—yea, behold all the nations of the Gentiles and also the Jews, both those who shall come upon this land and those who shall be upon other lands, yea, even upon all the lands of the earth, behold, they will be  drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations—
  • “upon this land”
  • “other lands”
  • “all the lands”
I’ve pointed out previously that “upon this land” which was the promised land in which Nephi dwelt was the very land in which the Gentiles would come in the last days after the discovery of Columbus. The days of the Gentiles would come and according to prophecy the Europeans would colonize *that* land and disperse the aborigines (Lamanites). The Book of Mormon narrative and prophecies connect the dots between the very land in which Nephi lived and the same land in the last days. The promised land is always the same land. There was no Asia with regard to the promised land. The land of promise was founded in America and continues in America where the choice seer would be raised up in the last days. Everything Joseph Smith visualized pertaining to geography is contained within this theme.

Central to the theme of the Book of Mormon is the appearance of Christ in America in which Jesus told the Nephites: “And many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.”

Moroni confirms in Ether that the choice land in which Nephi inherited is the same choice land in his own day: “And thus the Lord did pour out his blessings upon this land, which was choice above all other lands.” Most notably, Moroni confirms the prophecy in Ether of the rise of a New Jerusalem in the last days that would coincide with the choice seer upon the American land of promise: “And that it was the place of the  New Jerusalem, which should  come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord. Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.” All of the dots from Nephi to Ether can be easily connected in showing that the land of promise was one land and it was always in America, “And that a  New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.”
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Shulem
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Arabian Peninsula

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:11 am
If we both agree to start with the assumption that the the author(s) of the Book or Mormon was looking at a map, and/or was cognizant of basic geography, cardinal directions, and distances, let's start there.

Would you agree that apologists are mostly correct in concluding that the last known geographically accurate point in the Lehite narrative was somewhere on the coast of Oman? Would you agree that the trail of Lehi through the Arabian Peninsula and mention of Nahum are data points that strengthen the argument that the author(s) of the Book of Mormon had information about these geographies?

I agree. We have an accord.

I’ve covered this to some extent about Arabia in my other thread: here, here, here.

It may interest you to know that there is another thread (long) on this board where I’ve questioned the ability of Nephi to build a ship because the materials and manpower to do so were unavailable. Coastal Oman is discussed in quite a bit of detail:

Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel
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Re: Asia is DOA

Post by Laman Knight »

Asia is DOA?

I think we may just be getting started. Plus the Book of Mormon in an eastern asian setting is far less boring than the models that try to place people and events described in the Book of Mormon into the Americas where it doesn't fit. I think Zosimus has great insight into just how deep the evidence goes at this point.
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Re: Asia is DOA

Post by Shulem »

Laman Knight wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:07 pm
Asia is DOA?

I think we may just be getting started. Plus the Book of Mormon in an eastern asian setting is far less boring than the models that try to place people and events described in the Book of Mormon into the Americas where it doesn't fit. I think Zosimus has great insight into just how deep the evidence goes at this point.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your views and opinions and are free to express evidence you think the text and church history supports your position. This thread is all about Book of Mormon Geography -- of any kind. Therefore, all views are welcome.

Are you planning to move to the promised land anytime soon?

:D

PS. The Asian neck is too long. The text gives us the length and width of the neck. What is a neck? A neck sits atop the body and shoulders of a person and a head sits atop the neck. The text explains that not only was the neck quite narrow it was also very short. Those two factors go hand in hand in providing the dimensions we need to identify that neck on the globe. I’m afraid Vogel thinks a narrow neck can be endless and wind about for hundreds of miles. But we are informed that the length of the neck from north to south only took a day and a half to traverse. That narrows the possibilities considerably.
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Re: Asia is DOA

Post by Marcus »

Laman Knight wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:07 pm
Asia is DOA?

I think we may just be getting started. Plus the Book of Mormon in an eastern asian setting is far less boring....
:lol: pretty sure boringness is not a legitimate measure of Book of Mormon geography

Shulem, however, makes this stuff anything but boring! Imagine if he had taught seminary...
It would never have occurred to anyone to call the dismantling of the Book of Mormon "boring." 8-)
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Zosimus
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Re: Asia is DOA

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Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:57 pm
PS. The Asian neck is too long. The text gives us the length and width of the neck. What is a neck? A neck sits atop the body and shoulders of a person and a head sits atop the neck. The text explains that not only was the neck quite narrow it was also very short. Those two factors go hand in hand in providing the dimensions we need to identify that neck on the globe. I’m afraid Vogel thinks a narrow neck can be endless and wind about for hundreds of miles. But we are informed that the length of the neck from north to south only took a day and a half to traverse. That narrows the possibilities considerably.
"And now, it was only the a distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

Every interpretation I've seen of this verse has the time to travel from the east to the west along the border of Bountiful/Desolation as a day and a half.

Where are we informed that also "the length of the neck from north to south only took a day and a half to traverse"?
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Re: Asia is DOA

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:27 pm
Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:57 pm
PS. The Asian neck is too long. The text gives us the length and width of the neck. What is a neck? A neck sits atop the body and shoulders of a person and a head sits atop the neck. The text explains that not only was the neck quite narrow it was also very short. Those two factors go hand in hand in providing the dimensions we need to identify that neck on the globe. I’m afraid Vogel thinks a narrow neck can be endless and wind about for hundreds of miles. But we are informed that the length of the neck from north to south only took a day and a half to traverse. That narrows the possibilities considerably.
"And now, it was only the a distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

Every interpretation I've seen of this verse has the time to travel from the east to the west along the border of Bountiful/Desolation as a day and a half.

Where are we informed that also "the length of the neck from north to south only took a day and a half to traverse"?

Sigh. :|

Everybody has been interpreting it and explaining it wrong all these many years because they were blinded by the craftiness of apologists who failed to comprehend what Joseph Smith was actually measuring and describing. The first measurement given in Alma described the LENGTH of the neck, NOT the width. The only thing we are given about width in that instance is that there is a sea to the east and a sea to the west but we are not informed how wide the neck is by how much time it takes to cross it from sea to sea. That comes later in Helaman! Alma wanted his readers to know how long the neck was in correspondence to where Bountiful was aligned on its northern boundary at the base of the neck to that of Desolation which began at the top of the narrow neck which was one and a half day’s march northward. The neck is thus one and a half day long. I have painstakingly explained this in the other threads using examples, diagrams, and illustrations that show exactly what Alma was describing as pertaining to the one and a half day march through the neck and what Helaman was describing pertaining to the one day march across the width of the neck from sea to sea.

Look, it’s not fault the apologists are dumb and have misinterpreted Alma all this time. It’s not my fault that they are so dumb they couldn’t figure out that Helaman was giving the actual width of the neck (flanked by two seas) as one day’s march in which the land to the north could be sealed off from invaders from the south. It’s not my fault that apologists have been misleading readers all this time. But those days are now over. Just as you may know there is no king’s name in Facsimile No. 3 and that Joseph Smith hacked off Anubis’s nose, you may also know that the distance of one and a half days through the narrow neck tells us how LONG the neck is and how long it takes for one to leave Bountiful and enter Desolation which is directly above the neck on the mainland.

I simply cannot understand why you are asking me “Where are we informed that also ‘the length of the neck from north to south only took a day and a half to traverse’”? I have explained it in my threads time and time again repeatedly. Read the threads and open your eyes, please.

Read the threads!!
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Re: Asia is DOA

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:26 pm
Laman Knight wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:07 pm
Asia is DOA?

I think we may just be getting started. Plus the Book of Mormon in an eastern asian setting is far less boring....
:lol: pretty sure boringness is not a legitimate measure of Book of Mormon geography

Shulem, however, makes this stuff anything but boring! Imagine if he had taught seminary...
It would never have occurred to anyone to call the dismantling of the Book of Mormon "boring." 8-)

Good morning, precious. Time for seminary.

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Marcus
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Re: Asia is DOA

Post by Marcus »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:48 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:26 pm

:lol: pretty sure boringness is not a legitimate measure of Book of Mormon geography

Shulem, however, makes this stuff anything but boring! Imagine if he had taught seminary...
It would never have occurred to anyone to call the dismantling of the Book of Mormon "boring." 8-)

Good morning, precious. Time for seminary.

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: that's perfect.
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