Book of Mormon Geography

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Zosimus
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Re: Asia is DOA

Post by Zosimus »

Shulem wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:30 pm
I simply cannot understand why you are asking me “Where are we informed that also ‘the length of the neck from north to south only took a day and a half to traverse’”? I have explained it in my threads time and time again repeatedly. Read the threads and open your eyes, please.

Read the threads!!
I've read your threads as I have found them. So if I ask a question, it's probably because 1. I missed one somewhere (this forum is a big place) or, 2. I didn't understand and/or agree with your argument. As it has been with the Alma 22 length vs width discussion above -- I saw your maps but they didn't compute for me and I'm looking to understand your points.
Shulem wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:30 pm
Alma wanted his readers to know how long the neck was in correspondence to where Bountiful was aligned on its northern boundary at the base of the neck to that of Desolation which began at the top of the narrow neck which was one and a half day’s march northward. The neck is thus one and a half day long.
In Alma 22:32, Mormon (not Alma) is not telling us how long it takes to walk from Bountiful to Desolation. He is telling us about the width of the Land of Nephi and Zarahemla and the land northward and the land southward in comparison to the small neck of land. That's why he ends the verse with:

"and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward."

Since Mormon is trying to communicate that there's a narrow neck between a landmass in the north and a landmass in the south, he needs to compare the width, not the length, of those landmasses. So he tells us how long it takes a Nephite to walk "on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea". This is a "line", like a border, as confirmed in 3 Nephi 3:23:

"And the land which was appointed was the land of Zarahemla, and the land which was between the land Zarahemla and the land Bountiful, yea, to the line which was between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation."

From your previous comments and maps it looks like you are saying there is a landmass with a Line Bountiful in the south and there is a landmass named Desolation in the north. Between them is a no-man's-land that Mormon tells us takes 1.5 days to walk through.
Shulem wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 1:30 pm
you may also know that the distance of one and a half days through the narrow neck tells us how LONG the neck is and how long it takes for one to leave Bountiful and enter Desolation which is directly above the neck on the mainland.
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that there is a 1.5 day space between northern Bountiful and southern Desolation?

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Re: Asia is DOA

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Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:57 pm
PS. The Asian neck is too long....What is a neck? A neck sits atop the body and shoulders of a person and a head sits atop the neck. That narrows the possibilities considerably.
The Isthmus of Kra qualifies as a narrow neck, almost every description of it you'll find refers to it as a narrow neck. For example, from Britannica.com's entry on the Isthmus of Kra:

Isthmus of Kra, Thai Khokhok Kra, narrow neck of southern Myanmar (Burma) and Thailand, connecting the Malay Peninsula to the Asian mainland. The isthmus lies between the Gulf of Thailand to the east and the Andaman Sea to the west. It is 25–30 miles (40–48 km) wide at its narrowest point, between Chumphon and Kra Buri (both in Thailand).

The Isthmus of Kra is still known today as the Devil's Neck.

What we do know about the narrow neck in the Book of Mormon is that it was a sort of bottle neck where Nephite armies could gather to seal off the land northward from invading Lamanites. The Line Bountiful was a sort of defensive line.

For centuries, the Isthmus of Kra has served that exact function. The name of the area is still known today as Chumphon, a name which means alternatively: 1. Gathering place of soldiers, and 2. a place of many good things (Bountiful). It would be difficult to find a toponym that is more suitable for the narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon:

The word “Chumphon” comprises two words which are “Chum”, meaning either gathering, a large number, many, or together and “Phon”, meaning good things, selected things, or blessed things. Hence, if “Chumphon” is literally translated, it means the gathering place of blessings. However, the actual meaning of the name is different. As for the first story about the city’s name, it is believed that “Chumphon” was derived from the word “Prachumpol” or “ Chumnumphol” which means “gathering soldiers”, as Chumphon was a southern frontier city. So, the armies always set up their camps in Chumphon in preparation for battle ... Chumphon was strategically important in ancient times. Therefore, the meaning of the word “Prachumphol” aligns to Chumphon’s strategic importance in its history.

Historically, this neck of land was also the most active trading port. Supplies were carried across a line through the neck that connected the ports on the west sea to the east sea, and then massive ships launched from the west sea to carry people and goods (particularly timber and wood) to the north. Mediterranean beads have been found in the narrow neck, and settlements along that line have been carbon dated to the 4th century BC. These settlements in the narrow neck peaked in activity between the 2nd and 4th centuries AD.

The most interesting convergence between the narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon and Chumphon is that it was historically a satellite state with its capital directly south in the middle of the peninsula. The mythological founder of the settlements in the capital parts of the land southward was named Maroni.

Narrow Neck: Check
Frontier border state where soldiers gathered to defend lands north and south: Check
1st century trading ports carrying timber to the regions in the north deforested from overpopulation: Check
Large ocean-going ships with cargo and human passengers launched from a place where sea divides the land: Check
Bordering on a place left desolate from war: Check
Human settlements between the 6th centuries BC and 4th centuries AD: Check
Mediterranean artifacts dating to Book of Mormon time period: Check
Just north of a north-flowing river: Check
Founding figure named Maroni: Check
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How long?

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:38 pm
I've read your threads as I have found them. So if I ask a question, it's probably because 1. I missed one somewhere (this forum is a big place) or, 2. I didn't understand and/or agree with your argument. As it has been with the Alma 22 length vs width discussion above -- I saw your maps but they didn't compute for me and I'm looking to understand your points.

Okay, I can appreciate that. Obviously, you’re making an effort to keep up.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:38 pm
In Alma 22:32, Mormon (not Alma) is not telling us how long it takes to walk from Bountiful to Desolation. He is telling us about the width of the Land of Nephi and Zarahemla and the land northward and the land southward in comparison to the small neck of land. That's why he ends the verse with:

"and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward."

The general description of the landform given in the book of Alma is rudimentary at best. I believe it has been misinterpreted by readers and especially apologists since the beginning. And yes, I do believe the geographic description is telling us how long it takes to walk from Bountiful to the other side of the neck which reaches into the continent proper -- Desolation in which was formerly inhabited by the Jaredites who built a city thereat. The land northward was massive and sprawled outward to the north even until they came to large bodies of water and Joseph Smith’s backyard where the plates were buried.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:38 pm
Since Mormon is trying to communicate that there's a narrow neck between a landmass in the north and a landmass in the south, he needs to compare the width, not the length, of those landmasses. So he tells us how long it takes a Nephite to walk "on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea". This is a "line", like a border, as confirmed in 3 Nephi 3:23:

"And the land which was appointed was the land of Zarahemla, and the land which was between the land Zarahemla and the land Bountiful, yea, to the line which was between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation."

I strongly disagree. The description was given for the purpose of revealing how long the neck was from north to south. The orientation of the neck runs north to south being flanked by an east sea and a west sea, respectively. The purpose of the text is to let us know how long it takes to get from Bountiful to Desolation! That’s the whole purpose of that text! The “line Bountiful” was the northern border of Bountiful itself and ran from east to west or from sea to sea on a horizonal axis. The whole purpose is to let us know how far that line is from Desolation in order to let us know how LONG the narrow neck is. The “line Bountiful” did NOT run on a vertical axis through the neck and into Desolation. That’s not what’s implied. That simply makes no sense. The “line” is indicative of a boundary and the starting point in which a measurement may begin to take place.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:38 pm
From your previous comments and maps it looks like you are saying there is a landmass with a Line Bountiful in the south and there is a landmass named Desolation in the north. Between them is a no-man's-land that Mormon tells us takes 1.5 days to walk through.

Yes. And I believe that “line” is from sea to sea running along a horizontal axis and marks the northern boundary of Bountiful which is at the base of the narrow neck.

Zosimus wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:38 pm
Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that there is a 1.5 day space between northern Bountiful and southern Desolation?

You got it!

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Re: How long?

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Shulem wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:47 am
I strongly disagree. The description was given for the purpose of revealing how long the neck was from north to south.
Well, right in the verse Mormon tells us that he's describing how the land southward was nearly surrounded by water, and that his comments intend to draw a picture of a narrow neck. But for an internal geography, I don't think it matters much one way or another. I was rather responding to your comment that a narrow neck could be "too long". That's not a restriction I see in the text.
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Re: How long?

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Zosimus wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 11:53 am
Shulem wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:47 am
I strongly disagree. The description was given for the purpose of revealing how long the neck was from north to south.
Well, right in the verse Mormon tells us that he's describing how the land southward was nearly surrounded by water, and that his comments intend to draw a picture of a narrow neck. But for an internal geography, I don't think it matters much one way or another. I was rather responding to your comment that a narrow neck could be "too long". That's not a restriction I see in the text.

Yes, the peninsula was to the south and the mainland was all that was northward. The neck is what separated both.

But the neck begins at Bountiful (shoulder level) and ends at Desolation (chin level). All of the area between the horizontal axis of northern Bountiful and southern Desolation is neck area. We are informed that the area of the neck is small from side to side and from top to bottom (1 1/2 days by 1 day). I guess that is something you will have to visualize, calculate, and determine for yourself. Of course, you’re welcome to interpret it any manner you choose.
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Re: Asia is DOA

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:59 am
Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 7:57 pm
PS. The Asian neck is too long....What is a neck? A neck sits atop the body and shoulders of a person and a head sits atop the neck. That narrows the possibilities considerably.
The Isthmus of Kra qualifies as a narrow neck, almost every description of it you'll find refers to it as a narrow neck. For example, from Britannica.com's entry on the Isthmus of Kra:

Isthmus of Kra, Thai Khokhok Kra, narrow neck of southern Myanmar (Burma) and Thailand, connecting the Malay Peninsula to the Asian mainland. The isthmus lies between the Gulf of Thailand to the east and the Andaman Sea to the west. It is 25–30 miles (40–48 km) wide at its narrowest point, between Chumphon and Kra Buri (both in Thailand).

I grant that the Asian neck is a “narrow neck” and has the same terminology as in the Book of Mormon. The problem is the length of that narrow neck which I have repeatedly pointed out. What might Joseph Smith consider a narrow neck? He must have known about the canal project taking place at Delmarva which also had what was called a “narrow neck”. I’ve discussed that in detail in my original thread. But what other neck might he had known about in which to make a comparison in his own terminology.

What is a neck of land?

Webster Dictionary 1828 wrote:NECK, noun

2. A long narrow tract of land projecting from the main body, or a narrow tract connecting two larger tracts; as the neck of land between Boston and Roxbury.
Wikipedia wrote:The Boston Neck or Roxbury Neck was an isthmus, a narrow strip of land connecting the then-peninsular city of Boston to the mainland city of Roxbury (now a neighborhood of Boston). The surrounding area was gradually filled in as the city of Boston expanded in population (see History of Boston).

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And so, we have another “narrow neck” in Joseph Smith’s neck of the woods:

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The Line Bountiful

Post by Shulem »

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Sep 12, 2022 3:59 am
What we do know about the narrow neck in the Book of Mormon is that it was a sort of bottle neck where Nephite armies could gather to seal off the land northward from invading Lamanites. The Line Bountiful was a sort of defensive line.

I absolutely agree. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Zosimus wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2022 12:26 am
Is there anything else about the geography of Delmarva that turns up in the Book of Mormon?
Shulem wrote: [✓] Peninsula
[✓] Narrow neck 1 day wide
[✓] Sea South
[✓] Sea North
[✓] Sea West
[✓] Sea East

Alma 50:29 wrote:Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with large bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was northward.
Helaman 3:3,4 wrote:And it came to pass in the forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.

And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.
Image

[✓] Peninsula
[✓] Narrow neck 1 day wide
[✓] Sea South
[✓] Sea North
[✓] Sea West
[✓] Sea East
[✓] Large bodies of water and rivers northward
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Re: Special Notice

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It’s time to reveal another high card in my Book of Mormon geography deck. Those who have been waiting should not be disappointed!

That includes you, Marcus. :D

You too, Moksha. ;)

Backyard Professor, are you there? :?:


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Alma 50:29 wrote:Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with large bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was northward.

We also read in Helaman that many Nephites travelled unto the land northward to inherit the land and they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers. Hence, the land northward was COVERED with large bodies of water which can only be interpreted as large lakes or seas such as the Great Lakes. These bodies of water are due north of Cumorah where the final battles took place and the gold plates were finally buried.

Large bodies of water *cover* the land and are by no means small. They are giant lakes or seas! They cover the land in great distance from every direction! The Great Lakes are a perfect description and the gold plates punctuate the land below like a bullseye or a stake driven at the top of Cumorah as if to say, “This is the Place,” the large bodies of water lie ever northward.

It’s reasonable to imagine Joseph Smith visualizing the Great Lakes as the large bodies of water that lie northward. They do in fact cover the land. Other examples for the word “cover” to express a large area of vast distance:

Mosiah 8:8 wrote:And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of a many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.
Mormon 1:7 wrote:The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea.
Ether 10:21 wrote:And they did preserve the land a southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.


And there you have the Ace of Clubs. And I know how to use it! :twisted:

Hit me. ;)
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Ace of Clubs

Post by Shulem »

So, what’s the big deal about Great Lakes being large bodies of water that covered the land northward?

Well, it’s a nail in the coffin for Book of Mormon models in Central America. It absolutely destroys the possibility of identifying large bodies of water north of Tehuantepec! The description given of large bodies of water describes the Great Lakes wherein five large bodies of water cover the land northward in a vast system of lakes connected by a network of rivers. A definition given by Webster’s 1828 Dictionary states that SEA is “A large body of water, nearly inclosed by land, as the Baltic or the Mediterranean,” and the Great Lakes have long been called inland seas. Webster gives the definition for LAKE as “A large and extensive collection of water,” and then goes on to mention how “North America contains some of the largest lakes on the globe, particularly the lakes Ontario, Erie, Huron, Michigan and Superior.”

Joseph Smith and his contemporaries knew the Great Lakes were some of the largest lakes on earth and those lakes were known as large bodies of water. Thus, this definition and terminology finds its home in Book of Mormon topographical features for the land northward. The Mesoamerican models are DOA. They do not have large bodies of water described in the Book of Mormon. Even to this day the Great Lakes are described as large bodies of waters.
Last edited by Shulem on Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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