Book of Mormon Geography

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Moksha
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 6:39 pm
6. SHEMLON: And it came to pass that he built a tower near the temple; yea, a very high tower, even so high that he could stand upon the top thereof and overlook the land of Shilom, and also the land of Shemlon, which was possessed by the Lamanites; and he could even look over all the land round about.
Good. It would be disheartening to think of the Dúnedain of Númenor building in the land of Snookie and Mehmet Oz.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:20 pm
Shulem,

In another video I describe what was known to Joseph Smith's contemporaries about the ruins in central, south, and north Aerica.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ7Pbn4pTlE&t=5s

Here is part of it:

Singularity of the Mound Builders

Dan,

Another well-made and pleasant video to show how these myths certainly were influential in giving Joseph Smith ideas to come up with his own groundbreaking epic story: The Book of Mormon. Smith was free to take what he wanted, leave the rest, and create whatever else was on his mind. I suspect he would have done just that with the Kinderhook plates had he the time and opportunity. I’ve had a bit of discussion about the Kinderhook plates with Don Bradley as of late and have shared my ideas as well as critiqued his article.

Now, Dan, you certainly are welcome to continue with the hemispheric model to your heart’s content but you should know that the apologists are not going to agree with you and neither am I who like you am also a serious critic of Book of Mormon authenticity. I’m afraid that I stand behind the apologists with regard to a limited geographic model because the text bears that out and anything Smith or the pesky Pratt brothers said after the fact is just talk.

Besides, I’ve figured it out for myself and feel pretty confident that the Gentiles (nonbelievers) will eventually scoop up the Delmarva model for the obvious explanation on how Smith fashioned his geography into his story of how the land was founded and settled.

Believe it or not, my target audience is not the apologists or members of the Church. It’s the Gentiles!
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:55 pm
dan vogel wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:10 pm
Shulem,
In just 35 minutes you could have learned a lot about the Mound Builder Myth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTOWAgNDIDE&t=51s

Joseph Smith borrowed the historical framework of the Book of Mormon from this myth.

Bravo! Your video is valuable and informative -- a good resource, pleasantly presented. Not sure that I would use the word “framework” for describing how Smith borrowed from the myth to create the historical story for his own work and version but it’s obvious that Smith borrowed and used ideas from the myth in which to present his own inspired story which was given as restoration of what really happened via the gold plates. Smith borrowed what he wanted from existing sources and modified and transformed them to be whatever he wanted. We can agree that the Book of Mormon text does NOT exactly say that Lehi landed on what would later become one of the states (Virginia) of the future Gentile nation in which the gospel would be restored. Neither does it say he landed on the west coast of a southern continent far removed from the northern continent in which the gospel would be restored.

I’m convinced my argument for Delmarva is far stronger than the west coast of South America. Just because Smith stole ideas from one myth doesn’t mean he used everything exactly expressed therein because Smith had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. Rather than walk to America as the Ten Tribes did he had those from the southern kingdom sail on a ship. There are marked differences and Smith did as he pleased. Either way, Smith was a liar and was apt to steal from others for his own gain.
Thanks for watching the video. There is no reason for Joseph Smith to change the myth that he was hoping to tap into to lend credibility to his book. It makes no sense for Joseph Smith to adopt a limited geography. If he wanted a limited geography, he didn't have to have a neck of land at all. He could have done what Spaulding did. There is absolutely no reason for a limited geography to have a neck of land unless one is trying to save the Book of Mormon.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:40 pm

Dan,

I expressed a limited geography in the story in my longer threads. And lest we forget, Dan, the Sidon river is also part of that limited geography in which they managed topographical areas along that river for distances that were not very long at all. The cities of the land of Nephi and Zarahemla to the north was divided by the Sidon that ran north and south. The stories and narrative describe the Sidon being within a limited region! And, yes, I can prove that by the text which Joseph dictated out of his hat. Show me that river in South America. Show me the cities that were on the East Coast of Brazil. Then provide narrative to show distance between the coasts. Good luck. Snap!

But here are some references to the “isle”:
I'm not sure what Joseph Smith was thinking about the Sideon, but early Mormons identified the Magdolina in northern South America. As to actual cities, Joseph Smith didn't care about the locations of his imaginary cities, because he didn't think that far into the future when archaeology would develop. The distance (12 days) between Zarahemla and Nephi has nothing to do with the overall size of the land. The east coast would not necessarily be Brazil, but Columbia or Venezuela, as the early Mormons imagined it. George Reynolds, If I recall correctly, made a map of South America with Book of Mormon sites. Locations are in his Book of Mormon concordance. Don't forget Joseph Smith always had an escape with the changes that took place at the crucifixion.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Shulem wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:31 pm
dan vogel wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 8:01 pm
In Book of Mormon terms, the New World was surrounded by water (cf. Hel. 3:8) in dimensions much smaller than the Eastern Hemisphere.

Dan,

I agree that Joseph was influenced by the myths and other books written on the subject in which he had knowledge of. But Joseph had his own ideas and changed things up quite a bit. Now, take South America and Panama which is a long and windy land bridge that connects two continents. The text in the book tells us about orientation and oceanic four seas as they relate to the Book of Mormon lands and the narrow neck at north. The Delmarva theory works perfectly with the orientation and seas given by Alma JOSEPH SMITH in the text. Sea East and Sea West are expressly given for the neck above Bountiful and we also know that Sea South is a feature of the ocean although it is not accessed or part of the story. Sea North is mentioned as a feature. Bear in mind that it’s always Joseph Smith NOT Alma that is looking at the globe while telling the story. Joseph is the true author and he is the overlord of the entire map.

Delmarva has the four seas although the north sea is somewhat arbitrary it could be associated with the northern part of the Delaware Bay but moreover the coast leading up northward along the continental coast. Sea North does have bearing and Smith saw it on a map.

In contrast, the Panama neck is in opposition to what is described in the text so consequently Smith as the overlord of the globe could not label Panama as his neck. Panama does not have the right seas to match the Book of Mormon text! It doesn’t work!

Panama has:
  • North Sea
  • West Sea OR South Sea

South America has:
  • North Sea
  • West Sea
  • East Sea
  • South Sea

It’s the North Sea that effectively puts Panama out of the running as a possible candidate of narrow neck orientation given by Joseph Smith who was looking at the very globe in which he was describing. The narrow neck of land in the Book of Mormon does NOT have a NORTH Sea so Panama is automatically disqualified.
The Western Hemisphere as seen as an island has four seas. Reynolds and Pratt even name the Artic and Atlantic, south of Cape Horn. Panama has the seas on the east and west right at the point where it connects to South America, which happens to be where Joseph Smith's contemporaries drew the line.
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Re: Orientation and location for hemispheric theory

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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:03 am
The Western Hemisphere as seen as an island has four seas. Reynolds and Pratt even name the Artic and Atlantic, south of Cape Horn. Panama has the seas on the east and west right at the point where it connects to South America, which happens to be where Joseph Smith's contemporaries drew the line.

Dan,

I could care less about Pratt or anything he said. He didn’t write the Book of Mormon and does a lousy job interpreting it! Out with Pratt! I know the Book of Mormon far better than that dope ever claimed to. I don’t care what he said!

There is a big problem with trying to fit the hemispheric model into the Book of Mormon in dividing the ocean into the four seas and then comes the narrow neck where it is cut off from Sea East as I explained earlier because based on the hemispheric model with South America being the main land body, Sea North assumes everything north of South America AND Central America including the narrow neck. It’s the hemispheric big picture vs. the text of the Book of Mormon -- and I suggest you accept the text and understand the narrative of how they jumped from city to city. I will provide the sequence in a moment, please note that I already provided the first (6) to Moksha to show where Sauron’s tower was in Middle-earth, another rather famous myth. Then there is what to do with the city of TEANCUM that is north of the narrow neck and encroaching into Desolation! How do you fit that into the Panama narrow neck that is suppose to be only 1 ½ days long leading into the continent proper? The Panama neck scenario is an impossible scene when trying to make it work with the text and the layout of how Smith interwove the cities which you seem to think are in South America. Impossible. Can't be done. Accept the text, Dan! The apologists have accepted the text and so have I! *THAT* is where we differ. I have the text and you have a theory about mound myths and tunnel vision to go with it as if Smith embraced ALL of it into his own work when he in fact did not.

CITY TO CITY

1. FIRST INHERITANCE: And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the promised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land

2. LEHI-NEPHI: And we did take our tents and whatsoever things were possible for us, and did journey in the wilderness for the space of many days. And after we had journeyed for the space of many days we did pitch our tents. And my people would that we should call the name of the place Nephi; wherefore, we did call it Nephi.

3. ZARAHEMLA: Mosiah, who was made king over the land of Zarahemla; for behold, he being warned of the Lord that he should flee out of the land of Nephi, and as many as would hearken unto the voice of the Lord should also depart out of the land with him, into the wilderness . . . through the wilderness until they came down into the land which is called the land of Zarahemla.

4. SHILOM: King Mosiah had had continual peace for the space of three years, he was desirous to know concerning the people who went up to dwell in the land of Lehi-Nephi, or in the city of Lehi-Nephi; for his people had heard nothing from them from the time they left the land of Zarahemla . . . king Mosiah granted that sixteen of their strong men might go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi . . . they knew not the course they should travel in the wilderness to go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi; therefore they wandered many days in the wilderness, even forty days did they wander. And when they had wandered forty days they came to a hill, which is north of the land of Shilom, and there they pitched their tents. . . . And ye all are witnesses this day, that Zeniff, who was made king over this people, he being over-zealous to inherit the land of his fathers, therefore being deceived by the cunning and craftiness of king Laman, who having entered into a treaty with king Zeniff, and having yielded up into his hands the possessions of a part of the land, or even the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the city of Shilom; and the land round about—

5. DESOLATION: And the king said unto him: Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that forty and three of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Zarahemla, that we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us out of bondage. And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of many days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.

6. SHEMLON: And it came to pass that he built a tower near the temple; yea, a very high tower, even so high that he could stand upon the top thereof and overlook the land of Shilom, and also the land of Shemlon, which was possessed by the Lamanites; and he could even look over all the land round about.

7. Mormon: And it came to pass that as many as did believe him (Alma) did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts. Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.

8. HELAM: Alma, having been warned of the Lord that the armies of king Noah would come upon them, and having made it known to his people, therefore they gathered together their flocks, and took of their grain, and departed into the wilderness before the armies of king Noah. And they fled eight days’ journey into the wilderness. And they came to a land, yea, even a very beautiful and pleasant land, a land of pure water. And they pitched their tents, and began to till the ground, and began to build buildings; yea, they were industrious, and did labor exceedingly. And it came to pass that they began to prosper exceedingly in the land; and they called the land Helam. And it came to pass that they did multiply and prosper exceedingly in the land of Helam; and they built a city, which they called the city of Helam.

9. AMULON: Now the armies of the Lamanites, which had followed after the people of king Limhi, had been lost in the wilderness for many days. And behold, they had found those priests of king Noah, in a place which they called Amulon; and they had begun to possess the land of Amulon and had begun to till the ground. And Amulon and his brethren did join the Lamanites, and they were traveling in the wilderness in search of the land of Nephi when they discovered the land of Helam, which was possessed by Alma and his brethren. And it came to pass that the Lamanites promised unto Alma and his brethren, that if they would show them the way which led to the land of Nephi that they would grant unto them their lives and their liberty. But after Alma had shown them the way that led to the land of Nephi the Lamanites would not keep their promise; but they set guards round about the land of Helam, over Alma and his brethren. And the remainder of them went to the land of Nephi; and a part of them returned to the land of Helam, and also brought with them the wives and the children of the guards who had been left in the land. . . . Amulon did gain favor in the eyes of the king of the Lamanites; therefore, the king of the Lamanites granted unto him and his brethren that they should be appointed teachers over his people, yea, even over the people who were in the land of Shemlon, and in the land of Shilom, and in the land of Amulon.

10. VALLEY OF ALMA: Alma and his people departed into the wilderness; and when they had traveled all day they pitched their tents in a valley, and they called the valley Alma, because he led their way in the wilderness. And now the Lord said unto Alma: Haste thee and get thou and this people out of this land, for the Lamanites have awakened and do pursue thee; therefore get thee out of this land, and I will stop the Lamanites in this valley that they come no further in pursuit of this people. And it came to pass that they departed out of the valley, and took their journey into the wilderness. And after they had been in the wilderness twelve days they arrived in the land of Zarahemla;

11. HILL AMNIHU: Amlicites came upon the hill Amnihu, which was east of the river Sidon, which ran by the land of Zarahemla, and there they began to make war with the Nephites. Now Alma, being the chief judge and the governor of the people of Nephi, therefore he went up with his people, yea, with his captains, and chief captains, yea, at the head of his armies, against the Amlicites to battle. And they began to slay the Amlicites upon the hill east of Sidon. And the Amlicites did contend with the Nephites with great strength, insomuch that many of the Nephites did fall before the Amlicites. Then:

12. VALLEY OF GIDEON: Nephites did pursue the Amlicites all that day . . . Alma could pursue the Amlicites no longer he caused that his people should pitch their tents in the valley of Gideon, Then:

13. LAND OF MINON: Alma sent spies to follow the remnant of the Amlicites, that he might know of their plans . . . on the morrow they returned into the camp of the Nephites in great haste, being greatly astonished, and struck with much fear, saying: Behold, we followed the camp of the Amlicites, and to our great astonishment, in the land of Minon, above the land of Zarahemla, in the course of the land of Nephi, we saw a numerous host of the Lamanites; and behold, the Amlicites have joined them . . . people of Nephi took their tents, and departed out of the valley of Gideon towards their city, which was the city of Zarahemla.

14. CITY OF GIDEON: Alma had made these regulations he departed from them, yea, from the church which was in the city of Zarahemla, and went over upon the east of the river Sidon, into the valley of Gideon, there having been a city built, which was called the city of Gideon, which was in the valley that was called Gideon

15. MELEK: Alma departed from thence and took his journey over into the land of Melek, on the west of the river Sidon, on the west by the borders of the wilderness. And he began to teach the people in the land of Melek. (people of Ammon departed out of the land of Jershon, and came over into the land of Melek ) Then:

16. AMMONIHAH: So that when he had finished his work at Melek he departed thence, and traveled three days’ journey on the north of the land of Melek; and he came to a city which was called Ammonihah. Then:

17. AARON: he departed thence and took his journey towards the city which was called Aaron. Now it came to pass that after Alma had received his message from the angel of the Lord he returned speedily to the land of Ammonihah. And he entered the city by another way, yea, by the way which is on the south of the city of Ammonihah. Then:

18. LAND OF SIDOM: Alma and Amulek were commanded to depart out of that city; and they departed, and came out even into the land of Sidom; and behold, there they found all the people who had departed out of the land of Ammonihah, who had been cast out and stoned, because they believed in the words of Alma. . . . Alma having seen all these things, therefore he took Amulek and came over to the land of Zarahemla Then:

19. LAND OF NOAH: Lamanites had come in upon the wilderness side, into the borders of the land, even into the city of Ammonihah, and began to slay the people and destroy the city. And now it came to pass, before the Nephites could raise a sufficient army to drive them out of the land, they had destroyed the people who were in the city of Ammonihah, and also some around the borders of Noah, and taken others captive into the wilderness . (Amalickiah did not come down himself to battle. And behold, his chief captains durst not attack the Nephites at the city of Ammonihah, for Moroni had altered the management of affairs among the Nephites, insomuch that the Lamanites were disappointed in their places of retreat and they could not come upon them.Therefore they retreated into the wilderness, and took their camp and marched towards the land of Noah, supposing that to be the next best place for them to come against the Nephites) Then:

20. MANTI: Alma returned and said unto them: Behold, the Lamanites will cross the river Sidon in the south wilderness, away up beyond the borders of the land of Manti. And behold there shall ye meet them, on the east of the river Sidon, and there the Lord will deliver unto thee thy brethren who have been taken captive by the Lamanites. And it came to pass that Zoram and his sons crossed over the river Sidon, with their armies, and marched away beyond the borders of Manti into the south wilderness, which was on the east side of the river Sidon. . . . Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla. (through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west) (by the head of the river Sidon, that they might come into the land of Manti) Then:

21. LAND OF ISHMAEL: And Ammon went to the land of Ishmael, the land being called after the sons of Ishmael, who also became Lamanites. And as Ammon entered the land of Ishmael, the Lamanites took him and bound him. Then:

22. LAND OF MIDDONI: And he said unto Ammon: Come, I will go with thee down to the land of Middoni, and there I will plead with the king that he will cast thy brethren out of prison. Then:

23. JERUSALEM: Ammon and his brethren separated themselves in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, behold Aaron took his journey towards the land which was called by the Lamanites, Jerusalem, calling it after the land of their fathers’ nativity; and it was away joining the borders of Mormon. Now the Lamanites and the Amalekites and the people of Amulon had built a great city, which was called Jerusalem.

24. BOUNTIFUL: even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful. And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation (borders of the land Bountiful; and Amalickiah did pitch his tents in the borders on the beach by the seashore) (fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward)

25. LEMUEL & SHIMNILON: And also of the people of the Lamanites who were in the land of Shilom, and who were in the land of Shemlon, and in the city of Lemuel, and in the city of Shimnilom.

26. LAND OF JERSHON: And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance . . . . in the land of Jershon, and the armies of the Nephites were set round about the land of Jershon, yea, in all the borders round about the land of Zarahemla; behold the armies of the Lamanites had followed their brethren into the wilderness. (army in the land of Jershon, lest by any means a part of the Lamanites should come into that land and take possession of the city, took the remaining part of his army and marched over into the land of Manti)

27. ANTIONUM: Zoramites had gathered themselves together in a land which they called Antionum, which was east of the land of Zarahemla, which lay nearly bordering upon the seashore, which was south of the land of Jershon, which also bordered upon the wilderness south, which wilderness was full of the Lamanites. . . Behold, now it came to pass that they durst not come against the Nephites in the borders of Jershon; therefore they departed out of the land of Antionum into the wilderness, and took their journey round about in the wilderness, away by the head of the river Sidon, that they might come into the land of Manti and take possession of the land

28. MORONI: Nephites began the foundation of a city, and they called the name of the city Moroni; and it was by the east sea; and it was on the south by the line of the possessions of the Lamanites. (Lamanites had come into the land of Moroni, which was in the borders by the seashore.)

29. NEPHIHAH: began a foundation for a city between the city of Moroni and the city of Aaron, joining the borders of Aaron and Moroni; and they called the name of the city, or the land, Nephihah. those who fled out of the city of Moroni came to the city of Nephihah; and also the people of the city of Lehi gathered themselves together, and made preparations and were ready to receive the Lamanites to battle. . . would not suffer the Lamanites to go against the city of Nephihah to battle, but kept them down by the seashore

30. LEHI: And they also began in that same year to build many cities on the north, one in a particular manner which they called Lehi, which was in the north by the borders of the seashore.

31. LAND OF MORIANTON: And it came to pass that in the commencement of the twenty and fourth year of the reign of the judges, there would also have been peace among the people of Nephi had it not been for a contention which took place among them concerning the land of Lehi, and the land of Morianton, which joined upon the borders of Lehi; both of which were on the borders by the seashore. (Morianton did claim a part of the land of Lehi

32. GID, OMNER, MULEK taking possession of many cities, the city of Nephihah, and the city of Lehi, and the city of Morianton, and the city of Omner, and the city of Gid, and the city of Mulek, all of which were on the east borders by the seashore.

33. ANTIPARAH: (The land of Manti, or the city of Manti, and the city of Zeezrom, and the city of Cumeni, and the city of Antiparah) . . . march down against the city of Zarahemla; neither durst they cross the head of Sidon, over to the city of Nephihah . . . we were to march near the city of Antiparah, as if we were going to the city beyond, in the borders by the seashore

34. CUMENI: see above

35. JUDEA: And as we had no place for our prisoners, that we could guard them to keep them from the armies of the Lamanites, therefore we sent them to the land of Zarahemla, and a part of those men who were not slain of Antipus, with them; and the remainder I took and joined them to my stripling Ammonites, and took our march back to the city of Judea. (where is Judea?)

36. ANGOLA:

37. TEANCUM: Now the city Teancum lay in the borders by the seashore; and it was also near the city Desolation.


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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:45 am
I'm not sure what Joseph Smith was thinking about the Sideon, but early Mormons identified the Magdolina in northern South America.

Dan,

Again, I really don’t care what the early Mormons thought or said about the Sidon river. They are not qualified when it comes to explaining and expounding on Book of Mormon geography as are modern scholars who have dissected the text and discovered that it carefully and meticulously describes a limited geography -- and with that, I concur.

I discuss the Sidon river quite a bit in my long threads that you don't have time to read.
Last edited by Shulem on Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:45 am
As to actual cities, Joseph Smith didn't care about the locations of his imaginary cities, because he didn't think that far into the future when archaeology would develop.

I disagree. I think Joseph Smith carefully planned what he wanted in his novel before he wrote it and considered the implications and what might come of it once he released it. He carefully placed all the cities on the main body of the land where there is a clear pattern between them and the seas. There are three main factors or what I call the ABC’s for the mainland south of the narrow neck:

A = Land of Nephi (South)
B = Zarahemla (Midland)
C = Bountiful (North)

I have carefully studied how these cities intermingle and are geographically placed on the map using time, space, and distance. Joseph Smith did the same and he used Delmarva as his template which assisted him in keeping it all together within his complex presentation -- which he dictated out of a hat.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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dan vogel wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:45 am
The distance (12 days) between Zarahemla and Nephi has nothing to do with the overall size of the land.

Oh but it does! It’s an important clue in plotting how POINT A relates to POINT B exactly how Joseph Smith visualized it and measured it in his mind based on the map he chose to place his story. Point A in reference to point B then takes us to POINT C (Bountiful) as well as the other cities surrounded by the East & West coasts described by the text. The main body of the land was nearly surrounding by sea -- ocean blue. It’s the text that counts! That is what I go by!
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