Book of Mormon Geography

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Zosimus
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Zosimus »

Marcus wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 3:11 pm
To insist that things must come from only one source, in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise, is insupportable, in my opinion.
I'm not insisting that there's only one source. I've shared several myself. For Delmarva, I'm not convinced yet that it served as the template for the Book of Mormon geography. It is a peninsula with a narrow neck and a passage to land northward. That's all I can see that matches.

But I understand Shulem has more points for discussion.
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Marcus »

Zosimus wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 3:48 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sun Oct 16, 2022 3:11 pm
To insist that things must come from only one source, in the face of overwhelming evidence otherwise, is insupportable, in my opinion.
I'm not insisting that there's only one source.
I was responding to this:
Zosimus wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:24 pm
... Joseph then borrowed the names of Cumorah and Moroni -- and a few others like Comron and Cumr and Morianton and Ramah and Sidon [1] -- from pirate tales and Arab geographies. Should we then be surprised to find that he also borrowed the template for his peninsula from the same sources?
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Zosimus
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Re: Lamanite

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Marcus wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:11 pm
I was responding to this:
Zosimus wrote:
Tue Oct 11, 2022 2:24 pm
... Joseph then borrowed the names of Cumorah and Moroni -- and a few others like Comron and Cumr and Morianton and Ramah and Sidon [1] -- from pirate tales and Arab geographies. Should we then be surprised to find that he also borrowed the template for his peninsula from the same sources?
Correct, I'm saying the author of the Book of Mormon was influenced by many sources such as A General History of the Pyrates (especially the bits about Captain Misson's anti-monarchist island utopia founded "for God and Liberty"), Claudius Buchanan's The Star in the East (which describes 1st temple Jewish migrants with brass plates founding colonies throughout the Indies), popular adaptations of the History of the Rechabites and the Alexander Romance, The Travels of Sir John Mandeville, accounts of Prester John's hidden Christian kingdom, Arabian Nights and any number of Arabic geographies etc.

It's my opinion the geography also came from these sources.
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Marcus »

Zosimus wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:07 am
Marcus wrote:
Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:11 pm
I was responding to this:
Correct, I'm saying the author of the Book of Mormon was influenced by many sources such as A General History of the Pyrates (especially the bits about Captain Misson's anti-monarchist island utopia founded "for God and Liberty"), Claudius Buchanan's The Star in the East (which describes 1st temple Jewish migrants with brass plates founding colonies throughout the Indies), popular adaptations of the History of the Rechabites and the Alexander Romance, The Travels of Sir John Mandeville, accounts of Prester John's hidden Christian kingdom, Arabian Nights and any number of Arabic geographies etc.

It's my opinion the geography also came from these sources.
I see. in my opinion, getting some stories and names from a TYPE of source provides even less support for the idea that he would use a very unfamiliar geography from that type of source.

If i understand Shulem correctly, Smith used his familiarity with the Delmarva map to help guide his storytelling--to keep the story straight, as it were. If that's how he was using the map, there is little support for the idea that he would use a very unusual, and less known map for that purpose. Names, yes, but he needed his internal map memory to guide his story telling.
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Re: Lamanite

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Marcus wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:56 am
I see. in my opinion, getting some stories and names from a TYPE of source provides even less support for the idea that he would use a very unfamiliar geography from that type of source.
I'm curious why you think cribbing the names (eg. Comoro and Maroni) from one source (accounts of the East Indies) would make it less likely that a geography within the East Indies would be used. If a historical Maroni was the founder of a historical kingdom named Kamarah on the Malay Pensinsula, wouldn't it be logical that the real world geography of Maroni's Kamarah on the Malay Peninsula was the template for Moroni's Land of Cumorah?
Marcus wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:56 am
If i understand Shulem correctly, Smith used his familiarity with the Delmarva map to help guide his storytelling--to keep the story straight, as it were. If that's how he was using the map, there is little support for the idea that he would use a very unusual, and less known map for that purpose. Names, yes, but he needed his internal map memory to guide his story telling.
I understand the argument for Delmarva, but when I look at the proposed map I can't help but think the Book of Mormon narrative would be completely different if that map had been used as a template. For example, the Land of Nephi being more long and narrow than the Narrow Neck. If Joseph was using that map as a template, why are large groups always getting lost in a wilderness that is only 10-15 miles from coast to coast and just over the river from Zarahamla City? That's just one example of many conflicts the Delmarva map has with the text.
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Marcus »

Zosimus wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:46 am
Marcus wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:56 am
I see. in my opinion, getting some stories and names from a TYPE of source provides even less support for the idea that he would use a very unfamiliar geography from that type of source.
I'm curious why you think cribbing the names (eg. Comoro and Maroni) from one source (accounts of the East Indies) would make it less likely that a geography within the East Indies would be used. If a historical Maroni was the founder of a historical kingdom named Kamarah on the Malay Pensinsula, wouldn't it be logical that the real world geography of Maroni's Kamarah on the Malay Peninsula was the template for Moroni's Land of Cumorah?
you quoted my exact answer to that question immediately after you asked it:
Marcus wrote:
Tue Oct 18, 2022 5:56 am
If i understand Shulem correctly, Smith used his familiarity with the Delmarva map to help guide his storytelling--to keep the story straight, as it were. If that's how he was using the map, there is little support for the idea that he would use a very unusual, and less known map for that purpose. Names, yes, but he needed his internal map memory to guide his story telling.
...If Joseph was using that map as a template, why are large groups always getting lost in a wilderness that is only 10-15 miles from coast to coast and just over the river from Zarahamla City?
because he using the map as an aid to tell the story. It's no conflict in my opinion.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Moksha »

What about using both maps or perhaps additional maps considering the Vern Holley place names with slightly altered spellings? Joseph seemed like an equal-opportunity cribber. Just ask Emanuel Swedenborg or Adam Clarke.
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Zosimus
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

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Moksha wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:19 pm
Just ask Emanuel Swedenborg
Since you mention it. My hypothesis is that SE Asia as the original template for the Ether narrative and internal geography of the Book of Mormon came from a few passages out of Swedenborg.

Emmnauel Swedenborg wrote in a few places about a hidden land protected from the outside world that was inhabited by a people who guarded what Swedenborg called The Word, a set of scriptures that corresponded to those given to the Israelites:

"Of that ancient Word which existed in Asia before the Israelitish Word, I am permitted to state this new thing, namely, that it is still preserved there among the people who dwell in Great Tartary. In the spiritual world I have talked with spirits and angels from that country, who said that they have a Word, and have had it from ancient times; and that they conduct their Divine worship according to this Word, and that it consists solely of correspondences. They said, that in it also is the Book of Jasher, which is mentioned in Joshua, and in 2 Samuel; and that they have also among them the books called The Wars of Jehovah and Enunciations, which are mentioned by Moses; and when I read to them the words that Moses had quoted therefrom, they searched to see if they were there, and found them; from which it was evident to me that the ancient Word is still among that people. While talking with them they said that they worshiped Jehovah, some as an invisible God, and some as visible. They also told me that they do not permit foreigners to come among them"

When speaking of the location of this land, Swedenborg reveals:

"The angels and spirits from Great Tartary are seen in the southern quarter on its eastern side, and are separated from others by dwelling in a higher expanse, and by their not permitting any one to come to them from the Christian world, or, if any ascend, by guarding them to prevent their return. Their possessing a different Word is the cause of this separation."

The Book of Mormon was originally intended to be an account of these Tartars in the southeast of Asia. The same people that Samuel Mitchell believed fought a great battle of extinction with the Malays 40 miles from Palmyra.

Accounts contemporary with the Book of Mormon identify these Tartars as Nephtalites.
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Re: Lamanite

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Marcus wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 3:41 am
...If Joseph was using that map as a template, why are large groups always getting lost in a wilderness that is only 10-15 miles from coast to coast and just over the river from Zarahamla City?
because he using the map as an aid to tell the story. It's no conflict in my opinion.
I think this the main problem Shulem faces when trying to explain his thesis. I don’t believe Dan Vogel understood this point, either.

https://www.discussmormonism.com/viewto ... 8#p2764188
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:23 pm
Is Westeros a real place?

Image

Of course not. But is Westeros’ Dorne based on southwest England (flipped)? Is Westeros’ south based on Ireland (upside down)? Is Westeros’ north based on England and Wales (misshapen)? Is Westeros’ wall Hadrian’s wall? Is beyond the wall based on Scotland (misshapen)? Take a look:

Image

It sure looks like it. Shulem’s identification of delmarva as the inspiration for the primary setting within the Book of Mormon narrative is accurate, especially considering the source material.

- Doc
Once again, Delmarva is a template, or a narrative scaffold. The literal dimensions aren’t important. The peninsula can be enlarged as needed, but Joseph Smith has somewhere to plant his fictional characters in a fictional land. Remember, this book was meant to be a novel, not scripture.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Book of Mormon Geography

Post by Marcus »

Zosimus wrote:
Thu Oct 20, 2022 3:48 am
Moksha wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 7:19 pm
Just ask Emanuel Swedenborg
Since you mention it. My hypothesis is that SE Asia as the original template for the Ether narrative and internal geography of the Book of Mormon came from a few passages out of Swedenborg.

Emmnauel Swedenborg wrote in a few places about a hidden land protected from the outside world that was inhabited by a people who guarded what Swedenborg called The Word, a set of scriptures that corresponded to those given to the Israelites:

"Of that ancient Word which existed in Asia before the Israelitish Word, I am permitted to state this new thing, namely, that it is still preserved there among the people who dwell in Great Tartary. In the spiritual world I have talked with spirits and angels from that country, who said that they have a Word, and have had it from ancient times; and that they conduct their Divine worship according to this Word, and that it consists solely of correspondences. They said, that in it also is the Book of Jasher, which is mentioned in Joshua, and in 2 Samuel; and that they have also among them the books called The Wars of Jehovah and Enunciations, which are mentioned by Moses; and when I read to them the words that Moses had quoted therefrom, they searched to see if they were there, and found them; from which it was evident to me that the ancient Word is still among that people. While talking with them they said that they worshiped Jehovah, some as an invisible God, and some as visible. They also told me that they do not permit foreigners to come among them"

When speaking of the location of this land, Swedenborg reveals:

"The angels and spirits from Great Tartary are seen in the southern quarter on its eastern side, and are separated from others by dwelling in a higher expanse, and by their not permitting any one to come to them from the Christian world, or, if any ascend, by guarding them to prevent their return. Their possessing a different Word is the cause of this separation."

The Book of Mormon was originally intended to be an account of these Tartars in the southeast of Asia. The same people that Samuel Mitchell believed fought a great battle of extinction with the Malays 40 miles from Palmyra.

Accounts contemporary with the Book of Mormon identify these Tartars as Nephtalites.
I always felt Swedenborg was a significant influence, and i read several of his works trying to flesh that out, but i never saw this. Thanks for posting it, that's really fascinating.
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