FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

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Father Francis
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Father Francis »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:48 pm
BeNotDeceived wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:52 pm
There is no reason to try and dissect any of this

But I want to understand how the process works and exactly what Joseph Smith did to accomplish it. For me, it’s a matter of wanting to know what happened and hammer more nails into a coffin that has long since been buried.
My understanding is that when Oliver Cowdry became Joseph Smith's primary scribe there was a sudden increase in output. As I'm sure you know, Cowdrey was an educator and also attended a church whose pastor wrote "View of the Hebrews". Seems pretty obvious to me that he played a key role in the fraud.
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Shulem »

Father Francis wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 4:36 am
My understanding is that when Oliver Cowdry became Joseph Smith's primary scribe there was a sudden increase in output. As I'm sure you know, Cowdrey was an educator and also attended a church whose pastor wrote "View of the Hebrews". Seems pretty obvious to me that he played a key role in the fraud.

That is a side-note and a moot point for this discussion.

Whatever influence Cowdery may have had on Smith about Book of Mormon themes or content could not happen until Smith actually met Cowdery. Prior to that, Smith had already translated the 116 lost pages of the Book of Lehi that presumably tells a similiar story of how Lehi left Jerusalem, sailed to the promised land, and to include tales of the Nephites & Lamanites leading up to the time of king Mosiah I. Thematic material for the book was well established before Smith ever met Cowdery which means any early source material in which Smith borrowed or plagiarized from was done without Cowdery’s assistance.
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:13 pm
Glad to see you back, Shulem! Looking forward to reading this and your linked posts at the end.

I look forward to hearing your analysis of how biblical numbers for those with long life-spans in the Bible were encrypted into Book of Mormon chronology. The data is there right in front of our eyes! It’s simply a matter of identifying the numbers and doing the counting. Smith used biblical numbers to secretly biblicalize his Enos and Amos. ( :lol: )

I hope you find these matters eye-opening and recognize that it’s simply too fantastic to be coincidence. You can trust Shulem to get it right!

8-)
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Marcus »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:01 pm
Marcus wrote:
Tue Oct 25, 2022 7:13 pm
Glad to see you back, Shulem! Looking forward to reading this and your linked posts at the end.

I look forward to hearing your analysis of how biblical numbers for those with long life-spans in the Bible were encrypted into Book of Mormon chronology. The data is there right in front of our eyes! It’s simply a matter of identifying the numbers and doing the counting. Smith used biblical numbers to secretly biblicalize his Enos and Amos. ( :lol: )

I hope you find these matters eye-opening and recognize that it’s simply too fantastic to be coincidence. You can trust Shulem to get it right!

8-)
At the moment i am indeed comparing this thread re Nephi back to the other numbers manipulation game played by Joseph Smith regarding patriarchs, etc. that you documented.

Yes, it seems to be a pattern for him, definitely!!

Looking forward to reading more, as usual. :D
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:08 pm
At the moment i am indeed comparing this thread re Nephi back to the other numbers manipulation game played by Joseph Smith regarding patriarchs, etc. that you documented.

Yes, it seems to be a pattern for him, definitely!!

Looking forward to reading more, as usual. :D

And now, for a little fun, look at this apologetic gem :mrgreen: :

WIKISOURCE wrote:There is one thing very noteworthy with regard to the descendants of Alma at this period, it is their longevity. Amos and his two sons (Amos and Ammaron) kept the records for the space of two hundred and ten years. This is a testimony to all believers in the Book of Mormon, to the highly beneficial results arising to the body as well as to the soul of every one who gives undeviating, continued obedience to the laws of God. No people since the deluge, of whom we have any record, lived nearer to the Lord than did the Nephites of this generation; no people have had the average of their earthly life so marvelously prolonged.

A Dictionary of the Book of Mormon/Amos, the elder

The apologist suggests that because of the “undeviating, continued obedience to the laws of God” -- Amos and Ammaron were specially blessed by God to live unnaturally prolonged lives and suggest that others experienced longevity during the super-duper righteous 4th Nephi era! Can you believe this apologetic nonsense? What does it say for all the other righteous prophets in the Book of Mormon and Bible who died at a normal age? But here we see the apologists coming up with a silly excuse for long lifespans as the result of extra righteousness.

:roll:
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 5:08 pm
At the moment i am indeed comparing this thread re Nephi back to the other numbers manipulation game played by Joseph Smith regarding patriarchs, etc. that you documented.

Yes, it seems to be a pattern for him, definitely!!

Looking forward to reading more, as usual. :D

You’ll notice that Smith plugged an important biblical number of longevity (110) into the account but rather than blatantly apply it to the age of the person at hand, because that would be too obvious, he applied it to a calendar year in a sneaky manner in order to arouse reader’s subconsciousness into accepting the account as biblically familiar. It reminds me of how advertisements in magazines used to haphazardly and sneakily write the word “sex” all over various parts of the glossy advertisement, especially in the ice cubes of alcoholic drinks. It was a sneaky and powerful way to excite those who glanced at the advertisement and induce them to want to purchase the product. I believe that Joseph Smith used this same principle of subconscious trickery in order to lure his readers into accepting his story for the Bible’s sake. It was utterly brilliant.

Joseph Smith was a genius!

:idea:
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Number 110

Post by Shulem »

It’s vital to recognize that Joseph Smith specially selected the number 110 because it’s so memorable in being associated with post deluge longevity. The age is mentioned twice for key characters in the Bible, one of which became second-in-command to Pharaoh in Egypt and bore the very name of JOSEPH which was of great interest to Joseph Smith Sr. & Jr., for obvious reasons. The other succeeded Moses and took all Israel into the promised land. Think about it, other ages of unnatural longevity supposedly experienced by special biblical characters after the flood are not as memorable. For example:

239 Peleg
239 Reu
230 Serug
205 Tera
127 Sara
175 Abraham
137 Ishmael
180 Isaac
147 Jacob
137 Levi
133 Kohath
137 Amram
123 Aaron
120 Moses


But the age of Joseph of Egypt who lived to the age of 110 would be encrypted within the text of the Book of Mormon in which nobody but Smith would ever know until now as I explain these things here on Mormon Discussions.

110 Joseph
110 Joshua
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Marcus »

Is this why the lds church says they maintain records of missing members, and only assume they are dead at age 110?

110 IS baked into the Mormon conciousness. (I'm being flippant, i know, but it is too funny of a coincidence to ignore. :twisted: )

:D Back to our regular programming. :D
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Shulem »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Oct 28, 2022 6:28 pm
Is this why the lds church says they maintain records of missing members, and only assume they are dead at age 110?

110 IS baked into the Mormon conciousness. (I'm being flippant, i know, but it is too funny of a coincidence to ignore. :twisted: )

:D Back to our regular programming. :D

Actually, I don’t think you’re off the mark because the age of 110 is a significant age and Mormons today are well aware of that fact. The ancient Egyptians considered it an idealized lifespan or the perfect age in which one might hope to obtain although hardly anyone (if anyone) ever obtained that age. It was the ultimate age an ancient Egyptian would love to be and represents one who has eaten and drunk all the bread, meat, and beer to last an entire lifetime.

It’s reasonable to think that Joseph Smith paid particular attention to the readings of Genesis and how Joseph of Egypt performed his miraculous feats while in Egypt. His body was embalmed and he was placed in a coffin and he must have been given the grandest of burials any of the biblical patriarchs could have ever hope to receive. All glory and pomp to commemorate the burial of the temporal savior of Egypt. All hail to Joseph the son of Jacob! Then, much later when Moses made his exodus from Egypt we are informed he “took the bones of Joseph” (mummy) and paraded out into the desert and 72 years after the exodus Joshua died at the age of 110. The Israelites buried the “bones of Joseph” (mummy) in a parcel of ground in Shechem.

Here is an interesting point given in the Adam Clarke Commentary, a work in which Joseph Smith is known to have used.

Adam Clarke Commentary, Genesis 50:26 wrote:Joseph died, being a hundred and ten years old — בן מאה ועשר שנים ben meah vaeser shanim; literally, the son of a hundred and ten years. Here the period of time he lived is personified, all the years of which it was composed being represented as a nurse or father, feeding, nourishing, and supporting him to the end. This figure, which is termed by rhetoricians prosopopaeia, is very frequent in Scripture; and by this virtues, vices, forms, attributes, and qualities, with every part of inanimate nature, are represented as endued with reason and speech, and performing all the actions of intelligent beings.

It’s therefore reasonable to think that Joseph Smith paid particular attention to the age of Joseph of Egypt and likened him to have lived a perfect and long life. It shouldn’t surprise us to think that he shared this idea with others and it was subsequently passed down and ultimately became the standard by which one must have surely by now have passed away.
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Re: FOURTH NEPHI THE BOOK OF NEPHI WHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

Post by Moksha »

If the LDS Church raised the retention of records age to 220, they could show considerable growth in membership. Just a freebie apologetic idea if they choose to accept it.
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