Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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John Gee, Four Idolatrous Gods in the Book of Abraham, 2020 wrote:Time

Based on the Book of Abraham, Abraham seems to have lived in a time when Egyptians were in the northern Levant. The only time when that appears to be the case is between the reigns of the Pharaohs Sesostris II (1871‒1864 BC) or Sesostris III (1863‒1825 BC) on one end and Amenemhet III (1843‒1798 BC) on the other end. This is a period of at most seventy years, and it coincides with the Middle Bronze II period archaeologically.

Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship

John,

You’ve placed the life and early ministry of Abram (who according to scripture died at age 175, Gen 25:7) squarely into the Middle Kingdom during the reigns of powerful monarchs whose influence was far reaching, far beyond the borders of Egypt itself. A brief window of opportunity (70 or so years) in which you grant for Abram’s ministry to have occurred is between 1871-1798 BC. Therefore, powerful dynastic kings who ruled previously had long come and gone. The pyramids were already of ancient date and the unification that occurred in 3000 BC was truly ancient history as far as Abram in Egypt was concerned.

And yet, how do you deal with all this when it comes to biblical chronology which Smith endorsed and verified by his own published revelations? The answer is, you can’t! When it comes to the numbers, John, you lose! Your methods are proven absolutely false. The 70-year time span or the contemporary timing of Abram in Egypt is impossible if you want to maintain Joseph Smith’s revelations of biblical chronology that is documented in the bible as an accurate accounting of the age of man.

The Book of Abraham states that Abram departed Haran when he was 62 years old and journeyed to the land of Canaan. Due to famine at that time, Abram continued his journey southward and went down into Egypt to sojourn there. Accounts of Abram’s dealings with the Egyptian king and his court is detailed in the bible, Book of Abraham, and the Facsimiles. You have dated this to have occurred in the Middle Kingdom. But for reasons stated earlier, that is a problem. Suppose Abram was about 75 years old when he sat upon the king’s throne reasoning with the Egyptians about astronomy. Let’s look at the numbers going backward and see how they coincide with dynastic Egypt and how it relates to Smith’s biblical chronology. Let’s look at the genealogy allotted in the bible and plug them into your Egyptian window of opportunity in order to determine a date in which Noah’s flood coincides with Egyptian history. Bear in mind, according to the genealogy, the flood occurred just 292 years prior to the birth of Abram whereby his ministry according to you, followed after between 1871-1798 BC.

Abram about age 75 in Egypt (Gen 12:4)
Terah age 70 begat Abram (Gen 11:26)
Nahor age 29 begat Terah (Gen 11:24)
Serug age 30 begat Nahor (Gen 11:22)
Reu age 32 begat Serug (Gen 11:20)
Peleg age 30 begat Reu (Gen 11:18)
Eber age 34 begat Peleg (Gen 11:16
Salah age 30 begat Eber (Gen 11:14)
Arphaxad age 35 begat Salah (Gen 11:12)
Shem begat Arphaxad 2 years after the flood (Gen 11:10)
The Flood; Noah age 600 (Gen 7:6,11)

Therefore, adding 75 years to the 292 years between the birth of Abram and the flood gives us a total of 367 years which coincides with a time frame (window of opportunity) in which the flood occurred:

2238-2165 BC

So, how on God’s green earth do you square the dating of the flood to Egyptian chronology established by modern Egyptology with Egypt’s origin story as explained in the Book of Abraham? The answer is, you cannot! You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Your apologetics is immoral. You demonstrate a lack of integrity when you work on both sides of the fence. Your values for honesty go right out the window when you lie to everyone in defending things that are absolutely proven false. Just stop.

John, the gig is up! You lose. You have wasted your career as an Egyptologist and have sold it for a mess of apologetic pottage. What a waste! You need to give it up and move on.

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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Looking for a sliver in time to insert a fictional story? What about one hundred years after the death of Arwen in Lorien?
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Looks like Joe Smith is about as accurate as Genesis anyway. Neither Genesis nor the Book of Abraham are historical works.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:48 pm
Looks like Joe Smith is about as accurate as Genesis anyway. Neither Genesis nor the Book of Abraham are historical works.

You’re right on both accounts. I think it best and only fair that Latter-day Saints come to this realization so they can compartmentalize what to do with a correct understanding and decide how to process it and where to go from there.

For me, the Book of Abraham has been a long ride. It’s taken me down a long road of much retrospect in trying to sort out what has obviously become a classical mess that festers the Church today. The gospel topic essay really says a lot. It shows that the apostles and prophets today simply are at a loss on how to explain this mess and has left the members in a situation where they are divided in different camps on how to approach and resolve the issues. Book of Mormon geography is also plaguing the Church. Mormons are not a united people like they are supposed to be because their leadership is confused and afraid of things that threaten their faith.

Thanks for chiming in, Kish.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Moksha wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:52 am
Looking for a sliver in time to insert a fictional story? What about one hundred years after the death of Arwen in Lorien?

Book of Abraham apologists are now faced with a new set of problems because Pandora’s Box has been opened and SHOUTED OUT on the housetop. They are faced with the daunting problem of how to date the birth of ancient Egypt based on old fashioned scripture or tangible scientific evidence that proves Egypt is outside a biblical time line. When I was an apologist for the Book of Abraham, I was unable to resolve this issue for myself and had to put it on a back burner. That says a lot because I’m known for coming up with something, anything creative enough to maintain faith.

But in the case of 2300 BC vs. 3000 BC, the numbers say it all. The Church has been playing both sides of the fence. Indeed, the apologists are now faced with new questions in which they will be tasked to resolve. But it’s futile. The gig is up.
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Which one?

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3000 BC or 2300 BC?

I have a choice?


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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Shulem wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:36 pm
Indeed, the apologists are now faced with new questions which they will be tasked to resolve. But it’s futile. The gig is up.
As Saints*, couldn't they simply sing I Believe from the Book of Mormon Musical to shore up their faith?



* Formerly known as Mormons.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Moksha wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 3:30 pm
Shulem wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:36 pm
Indeed, the apologists are now faced with new questions which they will be tasked to resolve. But it’s futile. The gig is up.
As Saints*, couldn't they simply sing I Believe from the Book of Mormon Musical to shore up their faith?

* Formerly known as Mormons.

The unification of Egypt in 3000 BC is set in stone and positively confirmed by various means explained earlier in this thread. Ancient Egypt precedes Smith’s biblical dating whereby he married bible chronology with his own revelations -- the birth of Egypt as 2300 BC.

The apologists are backed up against the wall. There is no escape. There is nowhere to run. They are trapped.
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Re: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1823

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Shulem wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:32 am
You are more than welcome to peruse the Encyclopedia that was available in Joseph Smith’s time and see if anything catches your eye. Here is the link (PDF) to that work which contains over 40 pages of information in a separate article about Egypt, see digital pages 638 – 683:

Encyclopedia Britannica, 1823

(Dr. Shades, please allow me to use a little red ink in this very important textual example because it makes the point that needs to be made. Thank you!)

Encyclopedia Britannica, 1823, digital page 638 wrote:As a nation, the Egyptians may with justice lay claim to as high antiquity as any in the world. The country was most probably peopled by Mizraim the son of Ham and grandson of Noah. By its ancient inhabitants it was called Chemia, and is still called Chemi in the language of the Copts or native Egyptians; and this name it is supposed to have received from Ham the son of Noah. In scripture, we find it most generally named Misraim ; though in the Psalms it is styled the land of Ham.—To us it is best known by the name Egypt, the etymology of which is more uncertain.—Some derive it from AEgyptus, a supposed king of the country ; others say it signifies no more than “the land of the Copts,” Aia in Greek signifying a country, and AEcoptos being easily softened into AEgyptus.

Do you see familiar connections with this and the Book of Abraham? Surely the Backyard Professor will notice it right off the bat. Where is he? You can bet that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and others were resourceful and had an understanding of ancient Egypt as understood by scholars of their time.
This is a great find. "How could Joseph have known?!" Well it's right there in his contemporary Encyclopedia Brittanica. As you note on this and other posts here, Mormonism is literally based on 19th century scientific knowledge. This is exactly what happened with Scientology in the 20th century.
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Re: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1823

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Alphus and Omegus wrote:
Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:13 pm
This is a great find. "How could Joseph have known?!" Well it's right there in his contemporary Encyclopedia Brittanica. As you note on this and other posts here, Mormonism is literally based on 19th century scientific knowledge. This is exactly what happened with Scientology in the 20th century.

And there is so much more!

Smith used the Adam Clarke Commentary to assist in his revision or so-called new “translation” of the bible and he spent a great deal of time in Geneses. He went over that account with a fine-tooth comb. Here are some fascinating points in Clarke’s commentary that Smith surely was aware of and adopted those traditions when he translated (made up) the origin story of *how* and *when* Egypt came into existence as given in the Book of Abraham. Note how the Hamite line was under the “subjection” (made a servant) to that of his brethren which was something Smith picked up on in his theology of priesthood lineage.

Adam Clarke wrote:Genesis 9:29
The Hamites in general, like the Canaanites of old, were a seafaring race, and sooner arrived at civilization and the luxuries of life than their simpler pastoral and agricultural brethren of the other two families. The first great empires of Assyria and Egypt were founded by them, and the republics of Sidon, Tyre, and Carthage were early distinguished for their commerce but they sooner also fell to decay; and Egypt, which was one of the first, became the last and basest of the kingdoms, Ezekiel 29:15, and has been successively in subjection to the Shemites and Japhethites, as have also the settlements of the other branches of the Hamites.
Adam Clarke wrote:Geneses 50
  • BC 2448 Birth of Japheth, son of Noah, Genesis 5:32, compared with Genesis 10:21.
  • BC 2446 ) ) ) ) of Shem.
  • BC 2444 ) ) ) ) of Ham.
  • BC 2347 Noah, his family, &c., leave the ark. He offers sacrifices to God, Genesis 8:0 and Genesis 9:0.
  • BC 2188 Commencement of the regal government of Egypt, from Mizraim, son of Ham.
  • BC 1920 Abram goes into Egypt because of the famine, Genesis 12:10;

It seems clear enough that the very idea that Egypt was founded by Ham after the flood was something Smith picked up from contemporary sources and he used that information to write his own fictional story while pretending to translate Egyptian papyrus.

This really is the final nail in the Book of Abraham coffin. Everything hangs on this fatal error!
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